media

22 Oct 2008

The Internet Killed the Radio Star

Our Radio National insider examines the recent changes to the broadcaster's line-up for 2009 and finds a bewildering set of management decisions

"A modest refreshment of the schedule" is how, according to one insider, Network Manager Jane Connors described the recently announced changes to the Radio National program line-up for 2009. This particular turn of phrase arose as Executive Producers were briefed about the changes, days before the program areas — and program makers — to be directly affected were contacted.

The changes proposed by Dr Connors and her management team are indeed relatively modest — far more extensive changes were made in 2006 — and the rationale for reducing the number of programs on-air is credible. Radio National is under pressure to develop a stronger online presence both by improving the delivery of radio material and creating original content for a growing online audience. With no additional funding forthcoming, RN management were left with little choice but to divert existing effort and resources away from radio production into online production.

The criticisms of RN management are a product of the clumsy way they handled the announcement and their perplexing choices of what to axe.

Presenter Antony Funnell and producer Andrew Davies of the highly regarded Media Report learnt their program was up for the chop via a brusque email from RN management shortly after the program came off air two weeks ago. The production teams of the Sports Factor and the Religion Report were similarly informed of the fate of their programs with little or no prior indication their programs were in line for "termination".

Religion Report presenter Stephen Crittenden's on air "flaming" of ABC Management and his questioning of the rationale for the proposed schedule changes at the head of his regular 8:30am broadcast on 15 October put paid to any hopes Dr Connor may have held that her "modest refreshment" would slip under the radar. Crittenden's spray led to his suspension pending the results of "an investigation", apparently driven more by ABC Managing Director Mark Scott's fury at the inability of the radio division's inability to keep a lid on dissent than any egregious breach of staff rules.

Conversations with a number of RN staff suggest that while many of his colleagues might consider Crittenden's use of his own show as a bully pulpit unprofessional and open to the charge of self-interest, they also share his concerns about moves to take specialist programs off air. Like Crittenden, they question the decision to make the 8:30am line-up more "consumer oriented" thereby freeing resources to pursue a "younger" audience online. By all accounts, fellow program makers at a well attended meeting of RN staff in Sydney yesterday spoke out strongly in support of Crittenden's on-air critique.

The reaction to the news outside the ABC was dramatic. While the outrage of committed listeners was to be expected, a passionate defence of specialisation on Radio National and the Religion Report in particular in a 16 October editorial in The Australian was something of a surprise; the editorial pages of The Australian have long expressed trenchant criticism of the culture and content of Radio National.

Equally, public expressions of support for the Religion Report from senior religious leaders were also somewhat unexpected: Crittenden has ruffled many feathers because he has never shied from asking tough questions of religious personnel more used to the respect of their flocks.

The response of ABC management — to suggest an online "religion portal" — indicates a failure to understand or appreciate the value of "broadcast". Specialist programs like the Religion Report are valued by listeners precisely because their producers and presenters are able to make specialist knowledge accessible to a broad, general audience. The fact that this knowledge is relayed through the spoken word — rather than by wading through printed documents online — is also a key part of their attraction. The encounter with ideas via radio is more than a matter of media platform: listening is a qualitatively different experience to, say, reading the transcript of an interview — as well as being a more portable one.

In an email to staff on 21 October obtained by newmatilda.com, Dr Connors makes the point that that "ideas about specialisms (how they are constituted, how they are resourced, whether they require freestanding programs or might be legitimately diffused through the briefs of other programs) have not been set in stone but have legitimately varied over time."

She is of course right in making this point but so far she has failed to convince staff or listeners — or the editorial writer at The Australian — that the time is right to dispense with the only regular program in the nation which takes religion as a subject for richly informed and fearless current affairs style treatment.

A similar defence can be mounted for the Media Report: although the media is a topic tackled by other outlets, it is with a focus on the local industry as opposed to ideas.

While presenter Mick O'Regan does a terrific job in teasing out a unique take on the world of sport, the case for maintaining the Sports Factor as a stand alone "specialism" is less straightforward. The RN Breakfast program already features the sharp and entertaining daily sports roundup from Warwick Hatfield, and "sport" itself is covered from more or less every angle by all major media outlets.

The noise occasioned when the three weekday morning programs were cut has pushed into the background a number of other important shifts.

The decision to axe the two weekend documentary programs Street Stories and Radio Eye and to create a new documentary features program in the old Radio Eye slot at 2:00pm on Saturdays has generated a spate of impassioned emails to RN management and a degree of heat among the staff responsible for making the programs.

In effect, Street Stories has been cancelled, and the program's production team told they will be combined with the Radio Eye team — to make a program that sounds not dissimilar to the existing Radio Eye format. It's a move that has not been greeted with enthusiasm by the Street Stories producers and attempts by RN managers to smooth over the amalgamation have been met with considerable anger.

In addition, this expanded documentary production group will be expected to develop a new kind of program: yes, "online features". Asked to define "online features", RN management have apparently indicated they're looking for work like that of the US-based Media Storm outfit, set up a couple of years ago by veteran photojournalist Brian Storm.

ABC staff and managers were impressed by Storm's evangelism for the potential of online storytelling at a presentation earlier this year, and many see the Media Storm approach as the future for quality electronic journalism in the post-broadcast media environment. While a number of producers from both Radio Eye and Street Stories have apparently expressed enthusiasm for pursuing this kind of "image plus sound" documentary making, there is considerable concern about the resources required to produce quality multimedia work — not to mention the need for extensive training and reskilling.

Meanwhile, Radio Eye producers have been arguing strongly that the name — and the "brand recognition" that goes with it — be retained, recognising that in its broadcast form at least, the "new" documentary program will continue to broadcast much the same range of eclectic and highly produced documentaries as they have for the past decade.

Even less noticed than the apparent demise of Radio Eye is the decision to expand the radio drama program Airplay from its current 30 minute format to an hour. While this is good news for writers and actors — and for Radio National listeners who enjoy radio drama — the increased output requirements must be met without additional resources.

And here again is the crux of the problem: not only has ABC management alienated staff and listeners with this latest raft of changes, the "modest refreshment" of the program schedule for 2009 contains a considerable number of challenges for program makers — and no further funding with which to meet them.

Discuss this article

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GraemeF 22/10/08 6:22PM

You can’t access online while doing domestics.

AllanT 23/10/08 3:28PM

I think this on-line stuff is over rated. RN is enourmously proud of their 1 million podcasts per month. Big deal. I listen every week to the specialist 8:30 am programs (some about to be axed),plus In The National Interest, Late Night Live, Counterpoint etc. If I listened to these as podcasts I would be downloading about 50 podcasts a month. Just 20,000 similar radio listeners therefore equal the 1 million podcasts. I’m sure there are a lot more than 20,000 of us RN listeners out there. None of this includes all the other RN listening I do such as Fran’s breakfast, AM, PM etc.

I agree with GraemeF. You can’t access on-line while doing domestics or while driving a car.

kmccready 23/10/08 3:28PM

Religionists supporting the religion report is no surprise either. They think the constant blathering of this program (usually focusing on their infighting and doctrinal contortions) gives them legitimacy in society.

A more serious ABC mistake is not to strengthen science programing in a society where 25% of IVF users have no idea that age, smoking and obesity lessen their chances of conception.

And speaking of specialisation, a good start would be to have journalists with journalistic rather than entertainment skills. The skills to ask real questions and get at the truth, rather than fawning questions from within their own tiny mindsets and prejudices.

This morning’s ridiculous Life Matters platform for Ian Gawler who thinks he can cure cancer via diet, mediation and something called "power of mind" and who believes in Philippine faith healers was criminal hagiography supported by a "journalist" who is on the record for his own religiosity.

The good side of crap programming is that I switch off and listen to Bach’s Goldberg Variations or something similar. Pity.

desgriffin 23/10/08 4:17PM

Being a passionate and committed listener to many RN programs except perhaps for most of the Breakfast show (have a look at some of the responses to John Quiggin’s blog re the Australian today), I have written CEO Mark Scott and several pollies including the Minister and Green’s Christine Milne.

Several of the programs, including the wonderful Radio Eye, are unique and more than informative. Making stuff relating to the same content available on line isn’t much use though if it can be podcast that might be a different matter (though how you podcast material that has not been broadcast I’m not quite sure).

The point is not just the general one that this extraordinarily wonderful outfit is continuing to be starved of funds, it is that somehow Managers at the outfit don’t seem to understand much about management and leadership. You simply can’t persuade people to pursue their programs with passion and then not consult them when changes are to be made. To suspend them because they complain, even if they do so on air (perhaps regrettably), is to ignore critical aspects of human behaviour.

The literature on management shows absolutely clearly that organisations perform best when people are meaningfully involved in decisions which affect them. One would have to ask, where do they get these managers from? That RN people continue to ake outstanding programs is a tribute to the executive producers and presenters: it has very little to do with the managers as in most organisations unfortunately. What happened to accountability?

If the Rudd government was genuinely concerned to pursue an education revolution it would have its ministers in every area promoting Radio National, and the rest of the ABC for that matter.

sakaja 23/10/08 4:42PM

to my mind, radio is broadcast programs; online access should be an adjunct, perhaps with extra material, for those times when a program has been missed, or for those who prefer online access.

I listen in the car, heading to & from work & other activities; I also listen at home when fulfilling my domestic/garden goddess roles. No way online access will help me.

SHAME RN!! depriving us of broadcast access to interesting programs (I am in no way a religionist, kmccready, and I often find Religion report informative and thoughtprovoking)
and more SHAME AUSGOVERNMENT for inadequately funding our national broadcaster

sakaja

raedy 23/10/08 4:48PM

Dear kmccready
I’m Catholic, not voodoo. And I’m on the record about it not to push it at anyone but because I believe in transparency. A little googling by you would have found that before I took the Life Matters job, I spent 10 years in science broadcasting, both here and overseas. I did a science degree. I’m all over the net asking ‘real questions’. Have a look. A few months ago, some listeners thought I made it rather too clear that I’m not a fan of homeopathy. I think you’d have liked that interview.

I don’t believe in faith healing any more than you do, clearly Ian Gawler’s biographer doesn’t either, but Ian Gawler does. He thinks it saved his life. Did you want me to call him a liar?

His is an extraordinary story, he’s very widely respected and he’s helped a lot of people. Radio has many forms, sometimes we encourage people to tell their stories rather than grill them. I love Bach too but if you switch off everytime you hear something you don’t agree with you’re missing out on something.

andyobm 23/10/08 5:12PM

An open letter to Mark Scott,Sue Howard and Jane Connors,
Why is it so hard for you to grasp the meaning of "Radio National"?
!st, it is RADIO National,not PC national,Podcast National or 3gtype mobile phone National.
2nd, it’s NATIONAL, not just for city dwellers with access to "fast"broadband services.Radio is almost literally a lifeline for those of us in the Bush(sorry,"regions") with meager download limits on satellite or wireless,& risible dialup services.
Please stop channeling Jonathon Shier,and work harder at protecting RN,not diminishing it:,and Mr Scott,don’t follow the Fairfax example of gutting a newspaper to prop up a dubious online entity!
Andy O’Brien.

Harry 23/10/08 5:32PM

Harry Morton Busy and elderly people either haven’t the time or the skills to go online. The Sorm Troopers with the axe have defranchised a considerable section of loyal listeners most of whom never listen to commercial radio. Now many will change to commercial and tolerate the advertising babble rather than having so few real ABC radio programmes.

kmccready 23/10/08 5:34PM

Richard

Catholic is voodoo. Fullstop.

Your plea that you have studied science and broadcast in science cuts no ice. It is the classic logical flaw of believing in the messenger rather than analysing the basis of the message. The old fallacious appeal to authority - something catholics are past masters at.

There are lots of people who can’t separate their emotions and beliefs from reality - looks like you are one. Faith is incompatible with science and good journalism. Simple reality checking is what’s needed not "cynicism".

As to Gawler’s biographer being skeptical? Crap. The old "I have an open mind" when listening to bullshit also cuts no ice and stinks of the New Age.

A good journalist would have done some homework and consulted with other points of view. Weren’t you alerted by Tracey or Jackie? Didn’t you think to talk to Norman Swann? You don’t have to call someone a liar to ask if they may be deluding themselves. Haven’t you ever heard of "spontaneous remission?" etc etc

Your fawning agreement of his slander of the scientists who reported belief had no bearing on cancer outcomes was unforgivable from a scientific and a journalistic viewpoint. You really let your beliefs get in the way of doing your job.

You should give equal time to any number of people who can tell you why Gawler is dangerous. Shame on you. Shame on the ABC.

As Richard Dawkins says: “Religion is accustomed to getting a free ride — automatic tax breaks, unearned ‘respect’ and the right not to be ‘offended’, the right to brainwash children. … This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think — and thinking is anathema to religion.”

Seems like it’s also anathema to the New Age ABC with its New Dimensions and Spirit Report or whatever Rachel Con People’s show is called.

June Saville 23/10/08 6:09PM

The insensitivity displayed in the lack of communication on this issue was displayed in the survey we were all exhorted to fill in recently. RN personalities were used in plugs asking listeners to ‘let RN know how you feel about us’.

Being an avid listener I rushed straight to the site and opened the survey form. I could not believe the number of questions about my online habits, but patiently kept on, hoping to get to the nitty gritty.
There was no nitty gritty - in my book questions that should have been about what we like/don’t like about RN RADIO programmes.

I am not religious but really enjoy the Religion Report because it keeps me in touch with a critical view of an important part of our society. The Media Report is brilliant and would be sadly missed. Radio Eye and Street Stories (BOTH) are important RN programmes.

RN’s listener base was established because it presented intelligent portable RADIO. I like podcasts but no way would I use them to the extent I do my radio. It seems as though RN management is about to throw the baby out with the bath water.

leestubbs 23/10/08 6:52PM

This issue is a matter of social equity. People in rural areas do not have access to broadband so they do not have the luxury of podcasting. What does RN management suggest these listeners do?

As well, it is expensive to podcast. There will be many people in society who cannot afford to download the number of programs they would like to.

It also limits when RN can be listened to. I don’t get the slightest urge to wonder around the suburbs or hop on the train with earphones stuck in my ears listening to podcasts. For one thing, it is likely to cause deafness in the long term because the volume has to be turned up so load to overcome background noise.

RN is playing into the hands of companies like Telstra - if we want to listen to quality programs we will have to download them. I remember Emma Ayres from Classic FM being horrified by the decision of the Canadian national broadcaster to only stream the contents of its Classic FM station via the internet. A sign of things to come!

raedy 23/10/08 7:56PM

Kmccready
I think you’re trying to wind me up.
My journalism and track record speaks for itself.
You need to get out more.

Mr Crapulent 24/10/08 2:11AM

As a young (28 yr-old) atheist, i quite enjoy the religion report which opens up an otherwise unfamiliar world. The 8.30 slot in general is the highlight of an RN day (nods to Ramona though) and axing three of those programs is outrageous! Next thing you know they’ll be censoring the net…

The on line material should only ever be a place to create discussion blogs and download past programs - it is an adjunct to the radio program – a support – not an alternative. If the ABC wants to tackle the world based on net content alone, then it will struggle (up against so much else, and all). If I have to pick between the ABC and billions of other sites, I will only pick the ABC once a week - at best – and spend the rest of the time looking at near misses on the Darjeeling express, Japanese candid camera shows or anything involving monkeys on youtube.

hlewers 24/10/08 10:19AM

I too am seriously annoyed that the present government cannot find any extra cash to properly fund the ABC - specially RN, which as it happens, I listen to a lot. We probably should remember that the ABC board is politically appointed, and that remains a problem. At this stage, many Howard Government appointees are still there. As I recall, many seem to oppose worthwhile debate, and want to promote a very one-sided uncritical view of society. The axing of the Religion Report and the Media Report is in line with this thinking - although I’m not saying that the axing is caused by direct interference.

It is distrubing that the Board and the General Manager don’t seem to pressure the government for more funds (for the making of programs, that is). Surely that would be an important function of any system of management - rather than continually rolling over and acquiescing, trying to do more with less.

The ABC Board needs to be politically independent, and governments should commit to adequate funding. The ABC has definitely contributed in a very positive way to my education over many years, and should do the same for many Australians to come. The gr8 Educashin Revalushin (thanks Ben Popjie) could do worse than starting with the ABC.

Online, I’m much more likely to read such things as New Matilda articles than ABC stuff. I don’t have all day to read on the internet - but I do have a good pair of ears, and can listen to radio in a variety of circumstances and settings away from home or my computer.

(I too am a science graduate, and love the broad range of probrams that RN has been able to provide in the past).

kmccready 24/10/08 10:43AM

Richard

No one needs to wind you up and your gratuitous insult cuts no ice. In fact it’s so childish I think perhaps you are impersonating the real Richard. But let’s go along for the ride.

Faith is incompatible with good science and journalism.

Faith in christianity or voodoo are equally ridiculous and both contain double standards. As Simon Winchester notes, faith is the "blind acceptance of absurdity" (The Map That Changed the World, p139). The double standard is religionists supporting their own dogmas while rejecting others - you convincing yourself that catholicsm rates above voodoo.

Richard Dawkins puts it well: "Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. "

Or perhaps Voltaire might get through to you: “Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.”

Translate this blind stupidity to medical advice and you have a recipe for death. I’ve sat in court twice now and watched altmeders charged with manslaughter. I’ve watched a friend come close to death because of a whacky diet.

If you can’t take this on board and lift your game, why not offer your resignation.

*This comment has been edited

sakaja 24/10/08 2:57PM

surely there is room for more than one point of view on any subject, kmcready?

the fact that RN provides programs which effectively air many points of view makes for (pardon the puns)a broad church and catholicity of ideas, challenging views and debates and, clearly, interested listeners.

get off your own "unshakeable confidence" in your own "righteousness" and/or switch off what you don;t want to listen to! everyone has that choice.

sakaja

Guy R 24/10/08 7:45PM

Hang on Kmccready.

By your logic, the ABC shouldn’t have any catholics working for it. There shouldn’t be any catholics in journalism. Or catholic scientists either.

Actually your problem seems to be with people of faith. Which means you’re excluding a lot of talent from journalism and science.

mfurtado 24/10/08 11:00PM

An excellent commentary on the deficiencies of the RN decision-making process by Caroline Chambers! Lets hope ABC Managing Director Mark Scott sits up and takes notice, especially when he comes to realise that online opinionising, at the expense of informed programming, leads to the kind of false dichotomy evident in the reasoning of at least one contributor to this blog in relation to science and religion.

Stephen Crittenden, like Norman Swan, is an articulate, courageous, and well-informed critical investigative journalist, who makes his program a delight to listen to in a day that is dominated by the mindless chatter of ill-informed online opinion. If money is the issue and governments won’t cough up, let’s charge people for a license, like the BBC, but for Gawd’s sake, Auntie, dont subject the Australian people to the mindless drivel of the commercial channels.

kmccready 25/10/08 11:04AM

To sakaja and Guy R

You both fall into the postmodern relativist trap that there is more than one truth. There are only three possibilities: 1. the world is flat (99.9999% confidence interval), 2. the world is not flat (99.9999% confidence interval), 3. there isn’t enough information to say. I point out the confidence interval for those who make the silly hoary old induction accusation that we can never now if the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

The problem with religionists is that they cannot abide the lack of knowing - so they make up crap and indoctrinate their kids and try to foist their beliefs on the rest of society.

All religion is voodoo. All unscientific thinking is voodoo. It’s a simple and demonstrable proposition - like the world isn’t flat.

Guy R you misrepresent me. I never said voodooists, catholics or other religionists shouldn’t have a voice on RN. What I am saying is that whacky beliefs shouldn’t be presented as fact and that to do so is bad journalism.

It’s another fact that RN broadcasts heaps more spiritual/religionist/New Age crap than science and this in my view contributes to a sad dumbing down of society.

So may I suggest that all religionists and their defenders get out a little more - get out to an institution of higher learning, get out to your local library, do a little reading and thinking and talking in history and the philosophy of science. Quit being snowed by voodoo in its postmodern guise.

I like the way Plato put it: "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." (PS if anyone has a better translation please post it).

sakaja 25/10/08 5:07PM

kmccready

get thee to a nunnery or a monastery, o cleverclogs?

You said earlier you’ve had friends in trouble due to alternative medicine/beliefs. I come from a pharmacy degree and working with drug companies - iatrogenic effects are just one medical problem; and science can & does hide its mistakes (& change its mind).

I have subsequently PhD-ed in philosophy, history, literature, and use the public library (none of which necessarily relieves all ignorance). I also subscribe to various "new age" philosophies that make sense to me. not asking you to do so.

What I’ve learned is that, whether or not there is only one Truth, perspective remains significant. what we see/experience determines our reality - whichever end of the elephant we’re looking at determines our description of it. so … why not check out the all-round views we might not otherwise have access to? ABC RN has been a good place for me to do so. You may have made up your mind - allow others their space to think things through
(Dr, to you) sakaja

kmccready 26/10/08 1:42PM

sakaja

Let me get this straight. You’ve got PhDs in philosophy, history, literature and you think that if doctors make mistakes and sometimes medicines kill then this undermines the fact that only the scientific method offers hope for improvement?

You also think the "perspective" untested by the scientific method is a sensible way to operate in the world?

Do you willingly misrepresent the people who use the scientific method as having made up their minds or do you not understand the method?

dazza 27/10/08 2:44PM

Howard’s Thugs, who control the Board of the ABC, and all aspects of Management, had been having some difficulties in their job of destroying the ABC for their political and idealogical masters, due to some resistance, (not a lot, the have been at this now for many years), and with Conroy at last making some moves to get rid of them, ever so slowly, saw the writing on the wall and decided to move fast, and to carry out their brief with one big swoop. When these changes have been completed, a lot of journalists will have moved on in despair, and Howard and his Thugs will be happy…they will have totally destroyed the ABC as an intelligent force in Australian Society.
(Unfortunately, Elmer Fudd and Co. have no interest in keeping it alive either. It was often known to be critical of the Labor party, and now it is downright hostile.)
Dumbed down to the point that the people who do not vote Liberal or National will never listen or watch it again…just what has been the aim now for many years of the Conservative forces. Keep ‘em dumb, and keep ‘em voting for the dumbest!
Actually I gave up listening to Howard’s mate, Fran Kelly, a long time ago. I must make sure that I give her "Life and Times of John Howard" a big miss when it comes out on the ABC TV. I am sure that it would make me puke! She has been a dedicated fan of his for many years.
Dazza.

denise 27/10/08 6:07PM

Times change and Street Stories was bordering on the banal and ordinary, whereas Radio Eye has a fabulous format and sense of creative energy that needs a bit more grounding and direction.
The Religion Report was far too much into Christian (mainly Anglican & Catholic)naval gazing and could be replaced with a more general approach to religious practices that includes looking at more minority religious sects and denominations.
So all in all even if the majority of the ABC board was appointed by the Howard government, they’ve made all the right decisions on a new direction in RN programming as far as I can see.

dazza 27/10/08 7:33PM

Some comment on the other thread running through this blog. I am at present reading Richard Dawkin’s "The God Delusion", and I find it a fascinating book. I have always wondered how it was that some otherwise seemingly intelligent people could believe in such fairy stories, bit like the tooth- fairy, as Dawkins notes, and his theories about what could be a gene in humanity which predisposes us, or some of us anyway, to BELIEVE and suspend all reason and intelligence, as part of a survival evolutionary characteristic. Religions have always thought to catch ‘em young and fill the young minds with their garbage, and this continues today, in spades, with the eager assistance of first Howard, and now Rudd. over the centuries, thousands of parasites, the hierarchy of the churches, have managed to make a very good living from the gullibility of millions of humans.
Really makes you think. I recommend "The God Delusion" as compulsory reading in all schools. I know it will never happen while we have Rudd around. Actually, I am worried. More and more the Religious Right are taking over ‘thought’ in australia, and they have increasing influence in all aspects of living. Eight years of Bush, who went to War because ‘God told him so’, Tony Blair who seems to have disappeared since supposedly taking up a job as a "Friend of Israel" in the Middle East for George Bush, and is a raving loony as far as religion is concerned, and now we have Rudd, who is also a raving loony! Please, give us non-believers in fairy stories a break! We have had too much of theocratic dictatorships in the past, no more!
Dazza

Patman 03/11/08 3:07AM

There’s a hell of a lot of drivel on the BBC these days too, mfurtado.. Concerning religion, kmccready and Dazza, don’t knock it if you haven’t tried it, and stop going on like a pair of bigots.

I’m Catholic with a small c (check your dictionaries, lads), oh, and I happen to be a socialist. I don’t give a syrup of figs about anyone’s religion, but I do respect the right of people to believe in whatever ideology they wish, including all you agnostics and atheists out there. I have no respectfor those of a bigoted nature, and I’ve read a fair amount of such drivel above. Amen.

Rockjaw 04/11/08 7:44PM

kmccready, you really do sound dull and stupid. Perhaps a few hours of intensive bible study a day will fix that for you!

jfl 26/11/08 4:21PM

Richard,

Let it go mate - kmccready is a doodle who knows enough only to quote other people - he might be right about religion - I think he is - but he doesn’t know enough to argue the case logically.