middle east
22 Jul 2008
Telling it Like it Isn't
Distortions, delusions, misrepresentations. No wonder Western leaders and media don't understand the popularity of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas in the Arab world
It shouldn't come as any surprise that Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is consistently voted the most popular leader in the Arab world. The Islamist group is praised for its discipline and resistance. Not only Israel's loss in the 2006 Lebanon war marks a welcome shift in regional power, Hezbollah's opposition to the Bush administration's increasingly unsuccessful policy of divide and conquer is guaranteed to generate respect.Some sections of the Western media are registering the reasons for Hezbollah's popularity. The New York Times journalist Michael Slackman stated the blindingly obvious last week:
"The United States, Israel and some of their European allies have begun to recognize that their policy of trying to defeat their enemies by isolating and vilifying them has failed."
If only Slackman was completely right.
In some ways, of course, he's not mistaken. Israel last week did indirectly negotiate with Hezbollah for the mutual release of prisoners and murdered soldiers. America is now indirectly talking to Iran over its nuclear program and proposing the establishment of a mission in Tehran, the first time this has been raised since the 1979 Revolution. And Hamas is indirectly initiating a prisoner swap with Israel. But by dissecting recent events it becomes clear that Israel's behaviour remains directed solely towards fruitlessly trying to destroy perceived enemies in its neighbourhood.
The Jewish state might be finally realising that bombing and killing its way to strength is a losing game but Haaretz journalist Ari Shavit certainly isn't alone in expressing concern over Israel's loss of prestige:
"In two and a half years of [Ehud] Olmert's government, Israel has failed in four different campaigns. None of these failures was necessary. Basically Israel was and remains a very powerful country. However, when a stupid government conducts a foolish policy in every field and respect, the result is a resounding failure. This failure could become a real threat. No, not a threat to our survival, but definitely a strategic one."
Take the Hezbollah/Israeli prisoner swap. The liberal US Jewish weekly Forward reluctantly praised the event. Whilst the swap was widely debated within Israel and even criticised within Lebanon, the Western media has focused instead on convicted killer Samir Kuntar. An alleged "terrorist" committed to Israel's destruction, differing versions of his supposed crimes have emerged.
It's impossible to determine the truth of the story, but a number of Arab bloggers have asked questions that no Western outlet would even consider publishing. What about the nearly 200 dead Arab bodies returned to Israel, the vast majority of whom were not "terrorists"? The reason for the skewed coverage, wrote The Angry Arab, was outright racism:
"These are 197 dead bodies delivered by Israel to Lebanon in the prisoner exchange. The two dead Israeli soldiers have received more coverage than those 197 dead Arab bodies. Hell, dead Israeli soldiers receive more coverage than all the Arab living. Such are the racist standards of the White Man."
A prime culprit of this bias was The New York Times, ably assisted by every major Australian media outlet. The Angry Arab wondered why the American media failed to see the Arab world without the filter of belligerent Zionism:
"I was reading their [The New York Times] accounts of the prisoner exchange and remembering the words of the late George Carlin: why are Israeli terrorists called commandos, and why are Palestinian commandos called terrorists? And there are always stories about the 'victims' of Palestinian operations on Palestinian lands but never stories about the victims of Israeli crimes. Not one story about those Israeli 'prisoners': What were those Israeli occupation killers doing in Lebanon in the first place?
"And I hate how Israeli (and American and Saudi) propaganda keep referring to Israeli prisoners by their names, to humanize them. You will never see me refer to them by their names here because I refuse to succumb to the media standards that distinguish between expensive human beings and the cheaper human beings. You want me to feel sorry for an Israeli pilot who was downed while dropping cluster bombs on villages and towns in South Lebanon? Are you kidding me?"
It should never be forgotten that Israel killed more children during the 2006 Lebanon war than Samir Kuntar ever allegedly did. But, of course, Israeli lives have always been worth more than Arabs in the Western media. Double standards incorporated.
Levels of delusion remain central to the Middle East equation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in mid-July that Israel and the Palestinians have "never been this close" to a peace deal. Impotent figurehead Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian President, muttered something similar about both sides being "serious and [wanting] to achieve peace."
Nothing could be further from the truth.
A former Israeli ambassador to South Africa complained last week that the world unfairly used the term "apartheid" to describe conditions in the occupied territories. Defending roadblocks and other signs of oppression by saying Israel erected them for a "good reason", her tortuous explanations were like those made by white South Africans defending their measures against blacks before 1994.
More credible witnesses are veterans of the anti-apartheid struggle who recently visited the West Bank and concluded that, in many instances, the situation was far worse than anything they ever experienced. "Even with the system of permits, even with the limits of movement to South Africa, we never had as much restriction on movement as I see for the people here," said an ANC parliamentarian, Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge. "There are areas in which people would live their whole lifetime without visiting because it's impossible."
Israel's political and media culture is sick, mired in corruption and self-doubt. Aggression is a substitute for rational thought — witness historian Benny Morris' diatribe in last week's New York Times arguing for military strikes against Iran, even with nuclear weapons. Fear, insecurity and a lack of coherent narratives have resulted in a Jewish state that ambles from one disaster to another as it expands its illegal occupation of Palestine. This tendency is exemplified by footage released this week which shows an Israeli soldier firing a rubber bullet at close range into a Palestinian detainee. Such a situation precludes peace almost by definition.
The forthcoming US presidential election is unlikely to change this equation. Recent Israeli polling indicated fear of Democratic candidate Barack Obama due to his apparent sympathy towards the Palestinians, something he's hidden or abandoned many years ago. Consistent American pressure was once seen by the Israelis and hardline Zionists as the only way to ensure a peace deal between Israel and Palestinians, but Washington's impotence and bias has resulted in a neutered super-power.
Given these circumstances, it's logical that resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah would be so warmly received across the Muslim world. And if the reportage in the Western media were more balanced, perhaps Western leaders and their constituents would be better placed to understand the grounds for their ongoing popularity.
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Antony is both right and courageous because what he says, most of us don’t dare to voice .
I think that he’s a real Mentch, and that one day he will be seen as a hero by the Jewish community as he tries, in effect, to stop Israel and diaspora Jews from self destructing
Don’t drive over the cliff. Don’t let Ahmadinejad’s prediction come true, is his underlying message, a prediction not of assault, but of decay.
That Iranian firebrand did not say that his country would "wipe Israel off the map, " as is endlessly repeated, even yesterday by Gordon Brown, repeated one must add, to justify an Israeli attack on that country.
Rather he said, the Zionist regime will disappear off the map of its own accord, going on to explain that will happen as a result of Zionism’s own internal contradictions.
That would be tragic. But in all the ways Antony notes, it seems Israel is trying to prove Ahmadinejad right.
The greatest self destructive impulse of all is to contemplate an attack on Iran, perhaps even with Nuclear weapons if the US does not come to the party, as mad Benny Morris proposes.
Self destructive because, just as the attack on Iraq was driven by lies and thus has done untold damage to the US, so too is this planned attack on Iran is driven by lies, and will wound whoever carries it out
Iran is no military threat to the Israel and would not be one even if it gets the bomb. Such claims are just a credible furphy for the ignorant.
Israel is several military generations ahead of Iran, can deliver its existing nuclear weapons by missile, by plane or by Sub. Three pronged protection against a country with inneffective missiles, facing years before a bomb could be put on on a carrying system, and an aging fleet of war planes.
It is like saying a boy with a pea shooter can threaten a fully kitted Marine
The real reason that Israel is so fearful, that it would risk everything, is because if Iran was to patch things up with the US, even perhaps help the US out of Iraq, which it could well do, Israel’ s strategic value to the US would most likely go down.
The ultra special relationship, the billions in US aid to Israel each year, where might the rethink stop?
Israel is like the girl who has the school spunk in tow and is terrified of losing him.
This real fear will come to public knowledge as the true military imbalance between the two is finally revealed, (just as the lack of WMDs in Iraq was finally revealed)
When it does, and if the revelations come after an attack, Israel and the Zionist dream of being ‘a light unto the nations’ will be damaged beyond repair. Hatred, now mostly confined to the Middle East, will be world wide.
Who will ever again support a land which was ready to risk the world’s economy, derail our fight against global warming, all strengthen its own strategic alliances?
The second reason for an attack, equally shabby and equally self destructive in the long run, is to stop Iran supporting the Palestinian cause, to shut Ahmadinejad up.
He is so annoying in banging on about Apartheid, referendums, etc.
But, as I’m sure Antony would say, don’t shoot the messenger, deal with the root cause
Give the Palestinians that "fair go" we once cherished in this country, and Israel will be safer than it’s ever been.
I’m not sure if it’s just a form of apartheid and racism that makes Israel any different from any other conquering nation, including Australia.
Had the Palestinians accepted the idea of a two nation solution, (loss of control was initiated by the British occupation after the victory of the Allied forces in 1945) in 1948, rather than insanely pursuing violent means of attack against Israel on a continuous and consistant basis, they may have a decent foundation on which to form a nation from what was once just an outlying territory of the Ottoman Empire.
Once Palestine was under British occupation, it was a UN decision to form two seperate countries, Israel and Palestine.
The Arab world never accepted this decision and yet at the same time they expelled all of the Jewish people in their own lands.
The newly formed Jewish land of Israel was to fulfill the need to protect the Middle Eastern Jews from this Muslim apartheid, which in some cases was a complete cultural genocide enforced by destroying Synagogues and rebuilding them as Mosques.
And I for one believe the US would never abandon the Israelis, as they are far more than just ‘a stratgic asset’.
For many Americans Israel their spiritual homeland the birthplace of their saviour Jesus Christ - the Jewish Messiah.
Judaeo/Christians believe in a far more democratic and civilised form of rule and law, with gender equality vaues that Hezbullah and Hamas are light years away from.
I know who I would rather was in power in the region and guess what - they’re not Muslims!
What planet are you living on Denise? The Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from what had suddenly stopped being their land and become Israel. The Israelis murdered some and threatened the rest so much they fled in terror, leaving their land and their property behind. Then, in 1967, the Israelis took most of what was left to the Palestinians. Since then Israel has encroached further and further on Palestinian land, forcing the population into tiny Bantustans criss-crossed by Israeli-only freeways. The settlers murder at will, protected by the IDF. In the rare case where they’re charged for their crimes they get a slap on the wrist, even when they’ve killed in cold blood. Every year about ten Palestinians die for every Israeli. In the first six months of this year more than 57 Palestinian children were slaughtered by the Israelis. Do some reading, Denise. And ask yourself how it can be that many hundreds of thousands of Israelis and millions of Jews across the world are ashamed and aghast at the crimes that are being committed in their names. It’s none of your business who’s in power in the Middle East. Many of the rulers are regrettable human beings, Olmert among them, but when we interfere, as the US never tires of doing, we create worse things than were there before. Look at Iran. Britain and the US plotted to get rid of Mossadeq, a secular, popularly-elected leader, and replaced him with the Shah. Where did that get them? It got them the return of the religious nutters. Look at the shambles they’ve brought to Iraq. Please spare us the propaganda pap you’re fed in Saturday school. Do some solid research and come back when you’ve got something useful to offer.
It’s everybody’s business whose in power everywhere, especially when there are human rights abuses.
Only the mad Muslims commit these heinous crime of suicide/homocides on civilians, and both the Jews and Christians find this abominable behaviour.
The Palestinian militias deliberately risk their own families by fighting amongst them and then blame the Israelis when they are a part of the collateral damage of warfare.
These are dirty low down tactics that expose these anti-negotiators for what they are - terrorists that don’t even respect their own lives or the lives of their own families, because they are willing to sacrifice them just to make the Israelis look bad.
You go and do some homework Peter on the history of Israel and how there are still 1.5 million Arabs who live peacefully in Israel. These are not Palestinian nationalists, snakes who are hiding under the cloak of Muslim fundamentalism, but real Arabs, decent people who prefer the law and order of Israeli society rather than the sham of a Palestinian militancy and leadership not at all concerned with making peace with Israel nor improving the circumstances of their own people.
Denise
Yes, Arabs live in Israel, just as they did for more than 2,000 years before the country was stolen from them. And yes, they don’t have the same rights as Jews living in Israel. And yes, the Israelis slaughter ten Palestinians for every Israeli who dies in this war, and they do it with cowardly air-strikes. They inflict general punishment on the population for crimes committed, which is illegal under international law and immoral under any code of behaviour. The Nazis did the same thing. If a saboteur derailed a German train taking the Jews to the concentration camps 20, 50 or 100 civilians were taken out and shot as a lesson to the rest. Thousands of houses have been bulldozed in what’s left of Palestine, most of them previously housing people with no part in the struggle other than as victims. Thousands of hectares of olive groves and farms have been razed or alienated by the apartheid wall. Thousands of Palestinians have been gaoled without proper trials. Hospitals in what’s left of Palestine have almost no medical supplies, schools have shut down, business can’t function, ambulances are blocked at any of the hundreds of checkpoints so people die unnecessarily. I’ve done some homework, Denise, and I read widely - the New York Review of Books, the London Review of Books, the New Yorker, none of them anti-semitic, all of them appalled by what’s happening in Israel.
The argument is clearly won by dear denise.
She has history and morality on her side.
The others have only half truths and outright lies.
Peter worst is clearly a virulent antisemite who has only been taught hatred for jews.
But the most virulent antisemites are those "well meaning" but confused jews, who side with Loewenstein, if they are indeed really jewish at all. Meshugganahs!
Loewenstein is an exceptionally evil individual.
He has virtually been excommunicated from the jewish people.
Had he been a muslim he would have had a fatwa against him and been like Salman Rushdie, afraid to show his face for fear of being murdered. I wonder who his backers really are.
I know with whom I would rather have lunch, and it’s not that shmendrik Loewenstein, or is the name really Zweig?
Oli (Tzvi)
Revilo as usual rushes to the defence of "dear" denise (is that a bit condescending or isn’t it?) and of the brutal State of Israel. As usual, the only way to defend Israel is to accuse its critics of anti-semitism, that is to say, to once again hide behind the Separation Wall of The Holocaust. No matter what the Israelis might do, no matter what crimes they commit, no matter how scarily their behaviour shadows the behaviour of their erstwhile persecutors, they can’t be guilty of anything, can’t even be accused of anything, since they suffered so badly in the war that all their sins are forever absolved. So they’ve used cluster bombs in Lebanon, carried out collective punishment in Palestine, continued to occupy land that the United Nations says is not theirs, developed nuclear weapons while threatening to invade others who wish to do the same, squeezed the life out of Palestinian society, murdered Palestinians at a rate of ten to one and reduced the Palestinian land to a crazy quilt of Bantustans criss-crossed by Israeli-only freeways. Palestinians die in ambulances refused passage at check-points, "settlers" destroy Palestinian olive groves and shoot farmers with the connivance of the IDF, Israeli murderers get suspended sentences or no sentences at all for their crimes. Israeli terrorists are patriots, Palestinian patriots are terrorists. I’m no more anti-semitic than you, Revilo. I’m just looking at the situation with a clear and informed gaze, unclouded by myth and propaganda. I’m seeing it as it is, and it’s no longer a noble, idealistic society, but a deeply racist nation on the rampage, scorning morality and international law in pursuit of land that doesn’t belong to it. What’s next? Poland? The Low Countries?
Thanks Revilo I do need defending because peterbest does not see the Jewish viewpoint at all, he thinks we are like the NAZIS and he is blind to the positive sides of the Jewish state. He doesn’t realise that the land was originally stolen away from the Jews and it was only a matter of time before they joined forces from their enforced flights into freedom. It was inevitable that through the generations the Jews would (as freedom and persecution told their effects) to slowly work their way back to Palestine, their original homeland.
And believe it or not some Jewish families have been living there, in Palestine since the beginning of recorded history, far longer than any other Palestinans, whose early 20th century identity was that of an outlying territory of the Ottoman Empire. They have never accepted they lost WWII and every other WAR against Western values (Judeao/Christian values).
Why? Because the TRUE owners of the land surrounding that most holy city Jerusalem are the Jews and Christians. And when a place forms such a strong part of a collective identity it is easy to fight for. It feels right.
Whereas the Palestinians are relative newcomers to the land, especially as potential rulers with an untried system of government and welfare. They have never accepted the two nation solution and are aiming pointlessly for the moon with the ideal of a democratic Greater Palestine.
Some people just don’t accept the changes time brings to a place or region, to their own detriment.
The border problems are caused by their own vilolence towards the Jewish people. And they do have other friendly neighbours, other Arab nations like Jordan who share a border with them. Why not get medical supplies from their friends instead of borthering their enemies with such matters?
Denise, Your suggestion that the Jews had their land stolen from them and that the Palestinians are Johnnies-come-lately is hilarious. Your contempt for the Palestinians is nasty, your dewy-eyed fanaticism quite chilling. Don’t believe everything the lunar zealots tell you about Israel. Do some reading for yourself, not just of propaganda leaflets but of books by Israeli historians. Many - dare I say most? - of them are currently seriously revising the elaborately constructed myths and replacing them with facts, some of them discomforting to people who’ve been drip-fed fairy tales from birth.
Yes, sadly Israel far too frequently reminds me of Nazi Germany in its blanket vilification of its critics, its classification of Palestinians as sub-human, its brutality, its grandiose territorial ambitions and its contempt for international law and universal morality.
What can one say about your claim that "the TRUE owners of the land surrounding…Jerusalem are the Jews and the Christians". One could make a case for some sort of Jewish co-ownership, but the Christians? Is it theirs by right of conquest? Are the Muslims to be wiped from the record? Is that because they don’t qualify as humans?
Look, I’m out of this discussion. Enjoy your fantasies, you crazies.
What history does Denise have on her side, revilo? Convenient myths? You both should know Israel’s ‘New Historians’: those who pored over the records released in 1998, after the 50-year limit on them expired. What did they find? A consistent record of deliberate ethnic cleansing on the parts of Zionist forces. The humane ones like Ilan Pappe give this history the treatment it deserves; others, like Benny Morris, admit it freely but are proud of it. Regardless, disputing it is simply ridiculous. Revilo, I guess you can’t smear those of Pappe’s ilk with the label Anti-Semite, so they must be that other repugnant caricature: the self-hating Jew. Is that right?
Denise, by what measure are you saying that Jews and Christians don’t kill innocent people? The modern history of the Middle East is awash with crimes against Arab populations by Jews and Christians, from ‘Bomber’ Harris ‘spanking their bottoms’ and Churchill’s advocating of the use of mustard gas (yes, both against civilian populations) to the 1998 revelations of the 1948 ethnic cleansing. Mike Davis’s book Buda’s Wagon chronicles the enthusiastic use of the car bomb by Jewish militias against the civilian population in Palestine. How about the first invasion of Lebanon by Israel, with the deliberate bombing of civilian apartment complexes by the Shin Bet? There is bountiful photographic and video evidence of more modern Israeli crimes as well, and eyewitness testimony and research by tireless Israeli organizations like B’Tselem. As for more modern Christian crimes, have you heard a little about a place called Iraq? If the median estimate in the Lancet study was correct, we’re over the million mark now – not to mention the four million displaced and the millions more traumatised. But no, Christians don’t hurt innocent people, do they? It’s those filthy Arabs – why, since the beginning of the current intifada, they’ve killed hundreds of Israelis, which is far higher (adjusted for actual value of life) than the thousands or millions of Arabs killed, right?
Finally, please account for the Israelis and non-Israeli Jews who campaign for peace and renounce Israel’s long record of aggression. Oh, sorry, I forgot – clearly self-hating Jews. Seriously, nobody with a grasp of history could argue what you two do. philannetta.blogspot.com
"Only the mad Muslims commit these heinous crime of suicide/homocides on civilians, and both the Jews and Christians find this abominable behaviour"
if you could take a break from foaming at the mouth bigotry for just a second denise perhaps you could look up the atrocities (including bus, market and hotel bombings) committed by those fine upstanding JEWISH terrorists the Stern Gang, Irgun, Palmach
Or you could look into the fine upstanding members of the IDF who stood guard (and provided lighting from above) while the phalangist scum slaughtered women and children in refugee camps. A crime which even an ISRAELI commission found made Ariel Sharon unfit for office.
Then you could take a look at the testimonies of the Refuseniks and discover what those upstanding Jewish IDF members are doing in the territories DAILY.
Or you could continue to view entire swathes of humankind via the exact same prism used by the Nazi’s.
I really hope you have departed NM for good Denise (though I suspect not - the horrid little Islamophobe internet tribe with a burning need to defend anything and everything Israel does never seem to rest) you are a vile, nasty, small minded, ignorant bigot.
I agree with Denise sentiment:
"Had the Palestinians accepted the idea of a two nation solution, (loss of control was initiated by the British occupation after the victory of the Allied forces in 1945) in 1948, rather than insanely pursuing violent means of attack against Israel on a continuous and consistant basis, they may have a decent foundation on which to form a nation"
When my country Indo in the future takes 3/4th of Australi & UN (w/ China as head-power) says two state solution is the best compromise, Indo will need people like Denise to speak up for us and say how good it have been if Palestinian had accepted two state solution too! Ha ha ha.
But my true guess is Denise would really say Australi should be like the Palestinian and fight against two state solution. She would say "no justice, no peace." What does her Bible say about orang munafik (hypocrite)?
Revilo said: "Peter worst is clearly a virulent antisemite who has only been taught hatred for jews."
I think Peter loves justice, not hates jews. Revilo is confused between justice and jewish. They can go together: like example of Antony Loewnestein.
I wish I could make head or tail of what you’re on about hendro.
It seems some people have to fight many WARS and endure much hardship to finally achieve justice.
Some people never achieve justice. Either they are in the wrong place at the wrong time or they’re just plain unlucky!
Denise, I’m really puzzled as to why many Australian Jews are so callous, so ready to say,"well, tough luck." to the Palestinians when confronted with what their co religionists are doing over there.
I suspect you’ve all been effectively guilt tripped. Israel regularly calls for diaspora Jews to come home to Israel. I sure you know the word for it, though it momentarily escapes me.
There is good reason for this call if you believe in a race based state. The demographic battle against the Arab birth rate is being lost. Time is not on Israel’s side.
But here’s the rub. You do feel guilty, but You don’t want to live there, don’t want yourself or your kids of military age to be exposed to living in a country surrounded by hatred.
So you make your Faustian bargain and you create your alabi for resisting the call. You’ll fight on the front lines here! Yes, you’ll be even more valuable to Israel here than there, and all will see this and all will applaud, and none will suspect the guilt.
You will never tire in your distant commitment, never begrudge the sacrifices you are prepared to make as long as you don’t have to live there.
And so you do your job. You respond promptly to any criticism of Israel, no matter how well founded. You hold up the side no matter what. You donate generously and you will never, never, second guess Israel no matter what they do.
Let’s test this commitment. If Iran was to follow Benny Morris’ advice and nuke Iran this year, you’d some find a way to call black white and defend that action, would you not?
If I’m wrong, just write back and say; ‘If Israel nuked Iran first, I would be appalled and amongst the first to voice my condemnation." Of course put it in your own words. If you can say that, we have common ground.
If not, do realize you are on another moral planet and the things which drew Jews and gentiles together such a short time ago, like abhorring the Holocaust together, like opposing the Vietnam war together, are gone, trashed.
I found this written by a troubled Jew, a American former Zionist
"Exploring the Feasibility of a Single State
Calls for a single democratic secular state from Mediterranean Sea to Jordan River used to strike me as insincere subterfuge.
Over the past few years, though, as Israel’s intentionally created "facts on the ground" made complete West Bank withdrawal politically unfeasible, and as I’ve tried to adopt a universal-justice perspective rather than a tribal Jewish one, I’ve come to recognize one state is more justifiable than two.
Zionism’s separatist path no longer seems noble necessity as much as exclusivist anachronism.
I don’t expect a single state, which would itself raise many complications. International momentum envisions two.
Indeed, when Israeli professors at a January conference in Jerusalem began talking about one future state, their Palestinian counterparts dismissed the subject as impossible.
In the end, if Abbas and Sharon produce an agreement that satisfies both populations, I will be relieved. But the lengths to which Israel will still resort to ensure its future Jewish identity make me uneasy."
With a shock, Denise, I saw that this was written in 2005. How long can you pretend?
"but my true guess is Denise would really say Australi should be like the Palestinian and fight against two state solution. She would say "no justice, no peace." What does her Bible say about orang munafik (hypocrite)?"
Of course she would, she would take up the banner of Jewish terrorism, left by pre Israeli terrorist groups and bomb hotels and marketplaces.
Anyone who would take up arms in the event of an Australian invasion should support Palestinian statehood or tattoo "massive hypocrite" on their forehead.
In denise’s case perhaps "ignorant tool" might be a better bet.
"Judaeo/Christians believe in a far more democratic and civilised form of rule and law, with gender equality vaues that Hezbullah and Hamas are light years away from."
tell that to the Catholic Church, break away Anglicans, Orthodox Jews, the Exclusive Brethren and Kahane freaks.
BTW Denise, Rabbi Raymond Apple former senior rabbi of the Sydney Great Synagogue says:
"the problem is that the much vaunted Judaeo-Christian tradition or Judaeo-Christian ethic, probably doesn’t even exist."
MissnOmar the Catholic Church, Anglicans, Orthodox Jews and all of the other fundamentalist religionist groups you’ve mentioned do not hold political power. That is unless you actually consider the Queen of England our political leader and you consider the Vatican a proper state.
And hendro tell the Rabbi that’s his opinion, I’m entitled to my own opinion and that is that the Judaeo/Christian ethic is based on the collective identity formed from the foundation of both religions, The Old Testament, albeit modified and extended through the extension of the New Testament.
To ignore the immense effects of these two traditions that form the basis of Western values is as ignorant as suggesting that the only philosophy worth reading is that of the ancient Greeks.
"And hendro tell the Rabbi that’s his opinion, I’m entitled to my own opinion and that is that the Judaeo/Christian ethic is based on the collective identity formed from the foundation of both religions, The Old Testament"
I dont say you are not allowed false opinion. But senior Rabbi knows more than you about Judaism. He has authority from knowledge. You dont. He says Christians have imaginary belief about Judaeo/Christian ethic because they think their understanding of the Torat is same as Jewish one. But Jewish understanding is different to Christian understanding of the Torat. His knowledge of this based on scholarship. Yours based on ignorance. So your opinion about same foundation is only imagination, not reality.
And Pope says Greek tradition of Reason is foundation of Christianity, not Hebrew belief. So he agrees with Rabbi Apple. He is scholar too.
When I’m sick, I go to expert doctors, not people called "denise". When I want knowledge of religion, I go to big scholars of religions who study and have deep knowledge, not people called "denise". Denise can have opinion, yes. But worthless opinion.
I bet the Rabbi hasn’t read the New Testament like I have.
I have also written a critique of the first five books of Moses, the Pentateuch, (called The First Scribe) so Hendro who knows more about the Judaeo/Christian ethic, the Rabbi or me?
He may know far more about Jewish tradition and religious practice than I do, however I have studied and analysed both the ancient religious texts sacred to Judaism and Christianity through my Anthropologically trained mind, not from a personal perspective.
So Hendro go to the Rabbi for his learned opinion, but more fool you if you think that is the only worthwhile opinion to listen to.
Oh Antony Loewenstein: is it because someone in Israel bullied you? Did you find it hard to pick up a Jewish girl? What other conceivable reason could there be for your visceral hatred of the Jewish state?
As much as Denise’s opinion frustrates me I don’t think that it helps anyone’s cause to call her names. She said herself, in another post that:
"Israel has served the purpose intended; that of consolidating Judaism as a world-wide religion now capable of surviving the complete destruction/transformation of the state of Israel"
So instead of notching up blame and assigning responsibility for numbers of dead, lets be big enough to ignore rhetoric, however far from the truth, and say that one more death (on whomever’s ‘side’) is too many.
I don’t think many would argue against ‘transforming’ Israel. Things always change, so lets focus on the future and how best to transform, instead of trying to reconcile the past.
More difficult than name calling, sure. Idealistic but not very pragmatic, absolutely.
It seems to me that no one in this argument now deserves the higher moral ground, so enough already!
"MissnOmar the Catholic Church, Anglicans, Orthodox Jews and all of the other fundamentalist religionist groups you’ve mentioned do not hold political power. That is unless you actually consider the Queen of England our political leader and you consider the Vatican a proper state."
What on earth does "religionist" mean?
Hamas and Hezbollah are not religions so your comparing apples with hammers.
YOU claimed other religions are more "equitable" than Islam because Hamas and Hezbollah hold to a particular interpretation of it.
If your statement made any sense whatsoever this statement would also hold weight: "Kach are Jewish therefore clearly the Jewish religion is a violent and bigoted one"
Hezbollah are also somewhat irrelevant to Gaza don’t you think?
Why do you insist on viewing a religion held by BILLIONS based on your (completely erroneous btw) view of how Hamas views Islam?