israel/palestine
26 May 2009
A US President Just Said 'No' To Israel
In refusing to go along with Netanyahu's ploys to delay peace, Obama has shown Israel that he may speak softly but he carries a big stick, writes Uri Avnery
Barack Obama is often compared to Franklin Delano Roosevelt, but it is from the book of another Roosevelt that he has taken a leaf: President Theodore Roosevelt, who, 108 years ago, advised his successors: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."This week, the whole world saw how this is done. Obama sat next to Binyamin Netanyahu in the Oval Office and spoke to the journalists. He was earnest, but relaxed. The body language spoke clearly: while Netanyahu leaned forward assiduously, like a travelling salesman peddling his merchandise, Obama leaned back, tranquil and self-assured.
He spoke softly — very softly. But leaning against the wall behind him, hidden by the flag, was a very big stick indeed.
The world wanted, of course, to know what went on between the two when they met alone. Coming home, Netanyahu strenuously tried to present the meeting as a great success. But after the spotlights were turned off and the red carpet was rolled up, we can examine what we have really seen and heard.
Among his great achievements, Netanyahu emphasised the Iranian issue. "We have reached complete agreement," he proudly announced time and again. Agreement on what exactly? On the need to prevent Iran from getting a "military nuclear capability".
Just a moment. What is that we hear? "Military"? Where did this word creep in from? Until now, all Israeli governments have insisted that Iran must be prevented from acquiring any nuclear capability at all. The new formula means that the Netanyahu Government now accepts Iran having a "non-military" (which is never very far from a military) nuclear capability.
This is not Netanyahu's only defeat on the Iranian issue. Before his trip, he demanded that Obama give Iran just three months, "until October", and that after this "all the options would be on the table". An ultimatum that included a military threat.
Nothing of that demand remains. Obama said that he would conduct a dialogue with Iran until the end of the year, and that he would then assess what had been achieved and consider what to do next. If he came to the conclusion that there had been no progress, he would take further steps, including the imposition of more stringent sanctions. The military option has disappeared. True, before the meeting Obama told a newspaper that "all the options are on the table", but the fact that he did not repeat this in Netanyahu's presence speaks volumes.
No doubt Netanyahu asked for permission to attack Iran, or — at the very least — to threaten such an attack. The answer was a flat "No." Obama is resolved to prevent an Israeli attack. He has warned the Israeli Government unequivocally. Just to make sure that the message has been properly absorbed, he sent the CIA chief to Israel to deliver the message personally to every Israeli leader.
The Israeli plan for a military attack on Iran has been taken off the table — if it was ever lying there.
Netanyahu wanted to connect Iran with the Palestinian issue, in a negative way: as long as the Iranian danger exists, the Palestinian matter cannot be dealt with. Obama has turned that formula upside down and made a positive connection: progress on the Palestinian issue is a precondition to progress on the Iranian one. That makes sense: the unsolved conflict is fuelling Iran, provides it with a reason to menace Israel and weakens the opposition of Egypt and Saudi Arabia to Iran's ambitions.
Obama's main message concerned one issue that returned to centre stage this week: Settlements.
This word almost disappeared during the reign of Bush the Younger. True, all US administrations have opposed the enlargement of the settlements, but since the failed attempt by James Baker, the Secretary of State of Bush the Elder, to impose sanctions on Israel, no one has dared to do anything about them. In Washington they mumbled, on the ground they built. In Jerusalem they dissimulated, and on the ground they built.
As a senior Palestinian put it: "We are negotiating about dividing the pizza, and in the meantime Israel is eating it."
It has to be repeated again and again: the settlements are a disaster for the Palestinians, a disaster for peace and a double and triple disaster for Israel. First, because the settlements' main purpose is to make the establishment of a Palestinian state impossible, and thus prevent peace forever. Second, because they suck the marrow out of the Israeli economy and swallow resources that should be used to help the poor. Third: because the settlements undermine the rule of law in Israel, they spread the cancer of fascism and push the whole political system to the right.
Therefore Obama is right when he puts the settlement issue ahead of everything else, even ahead of the peace negotiations. A total cessation of building in the settlements comes before anything else. When a body is bleeding, the flow has to be stopped before the disease can be treated. Otherwise the patient will die of loss of blood and there won't be anybody left to treat. This is precisely Netanyahu's aim.
This is why Netanyahu has refused to accede to the request. Otherwise his coalition would have fallen apart and he would be compelled to resign or set up an alternative coalition with Kadima. The hapless Tzipi Livni, who has not found a role in opposition, would probably jump at the opportunity.
Netanyahu will try to use Barak against Barack. With the help of Ehud Barak he is putting on a performance of "demolishing outposts", in order to divert attention from the ongoing building in the settlements. We shall see whether this ploy succeeds and whether the settlers' leadership will play their part in this charade. The day after Netanyahu's return, Barak demolished for the seventh time (!) Maoz Esther, an outpost consisting of seven wooden huts. Within hours, the settlers returned to the place.
(The Israeli army has built an entire Arab village in the Negev for training purposes. Somebody joked this week that the army has built this outpost and manned it with soldiers disguised as settlers so that it can be demolished every time there is pressure from America. Afterwards the soldiers build it up again, ready for use the next time pressure is exerted.)
Refusal to freeze the settlements means refusal to accept the two-state solution. Instead, Netanyahu juggled with empty slogans. He spoke about "two peoples living together in peace", but refused to speak about a Palestinian state. One of his aides called the demand for two states a "childish game".
But this is not a childish game at all. It has already been proven that negotiations, the aim of which has not been defined in advance, do not lead anywhere. The Oslo agreement collapsed for precisely this reason. Netanyahu hopes that the next round of negotiations will also founder because of this.
He has not presented a plan of his own. Not because he has no plan, but because he knows that nobody would accept it.
Netanyahu's plan is this: total Israeli control over all the country between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. Unlimited Jewish settlement everywhere. Limited self-government for a number of Palestinian enclaves with a dense Palestinian population, which will be surrounded by settlements. All of Jerusalem to remain part of Israel. Not a single Palestinian refugee to return to the territory of Israel.
This merchandise will find no buyers in the whole wide world. So Netanyahu, a professional salesman, tries to wrap it in an attractive package.
For example: the Palestinians will "govern themselves". Where exactly? Where will the borders run? He has already pronounced that the Palestinians cannot have control over "their airspace or their border crossings". A state without a military and without control over its airspace and border crossings — that looks suspiciously like the Bantustans of the late racist apartheid regime in South Africa.
I would not be surprised if at some point in the future Netanyahu starts to call these native reservations "a Palestinian state".
In the meanwhile he tries to gain time and postpone the negotiations as long as possible. He demands that the Palestinians recognise Israel as "the state of the Jewish people", expecting and hoping that they will reject this with both hands. And indeed, accepting it would mean giving up in advance their main card — the refugee issue — and also sticking a knife in the back of the 1.5 million Palestinians who are citizens of Israel.
Netanyahu is ready to accept Obama's proposal to involve the Arab and other Muslim states in the peace process — an idea that has always been rigorously rejected by all Israel governments. But that is just one more of the rabbits that he will pull out of his hat from time to time in order to delay everything. Before dozens of Arab states — and perhaps more than 50 Muslim states altogether — decide whether to join the process, months, perhaps years, will pass. And in the meantime, Netanyahu demands from them an advance payment in the form of normalisation — which means that the entire Arab and Muslim world would give up their only card without getting anything in return. Pure baksheesh.
That is Netanyahu's working plan. Does Obama have a peace plan of his own? If one puts all his statements of the last few days together, it seems that he has.
When he speaks about "two states for two peoples", he practically accepts the peace plan that has by now become a worldwide consensus: as the "parameters" put forward by Bill Clinton in his last days in office, as the core of the Saudi peace proposal and as the peace plans of the Israeli peace movement (the draft peace agreement of Gush Shalom, the Geneva initiative, the Ayalon-Nusseibeh statement and more).
In short: a sovereign and viable State of Palestine side by side with Israel, the pre-1967 borders with minor and agreed exchanges of territory, the dismantling of all the settlements that will not be joined to Israel in the territory exchanges, East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, a mutually acceptable solution to the refugee problem, a safe passage between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, mutual security arrangements.
In the meantime, throughout the world there is a growing consensus that the only way to get the wheels of peace moving again is for Obama to publish his peace plan and call upon both sides to accept it. If need be, in popular referendums.
He could do this in the speech he is due to deliver in two weeks time in Cairo, during his first presidential trip to the Middle East. Not by accident, he will not come to Israel during this trip, something that is almost unprecedented for a US president.
To do this, he must be ready to take on the powerful Israeli lobby. It seems that he is ready for that. The last president who dared to do this was Dwight D. Eisenhower, who compelled Israel to give back the Sinai straight after the 1956 war. "Ike" was so popular that he was not afraid of the lobby. Obama is no less popular and perhaps he will dare too. As "Teddy" Roosevelt indicated: when you have a big stick, you don't have to wave it. You can afford to speak softly.
I hope Obama will indeed speak softly — but clearly and unambiguously.
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Obama is a product of the Israel lobby- where is the evidence that he is prepared to take it on? Surely the first sign of this would be Obama sacking his entire cabinet.
Being mildly firm with Netanyahu is hardly a sign of a huge shift in policy. Has Obama mentioned the phone-book size list of United Nations resolutions which Israel is currently defying? I didn’t think so.
Here is a recent article in Haaretz entitled "Netanyahu: If Israel doesn’t take out Iranian threat, no one will ". Link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1088065.html
Looks like Obama really put the fear of God into him (not)!
Granted, he did mention the need to prevent Iranian "nuclear military capability", but to Israel this could well mean any sign of Iranian nuclear development whatsoever.
I read this article the other day and felt heartened. One cannot be sure just how much Obama will or can do but Avnery is a reliable and respected commentator and if he sees such ‘positive’ aspects then everyone who cares about this appalling crime against the Palestinian people must take heart.
Sorry, rosross, my heart is not involved, but my mind is filled with cynicism. Obama has made far too many promises of unwavering support for israel for me to accept this, and indeed, his whole Cabinet is filled with Zionists, his Sect. of State Clinton is a rabid israeli supporter, her staff is all Zionist, so where is he going to get any moral support for him to buck the extremely powerful Zionist Jewish lobbies, and the rabid Fundamentalist Christian right, who control the Republicans.
The Democrat congress is OWNED by the jewish lobbies, so he is not going to get any support there, they would be too scared to even look sidewise at any relaxation of the mindless support for the treasonous American jews whose whole soul, body and mind is with israel, not America, and who day in, day out, work for israel, NOT the interests of the USA..or the World!
Sure, what you suggest for Obama in this article is the best for israel, the Palestinians (well, I would suggest a one-state solution, actually, would be the best) America and the Middle East, but since when has sanity prevailed?
Someone has got to ask eventually just where the loyalties of these people lie, and ask the American people the same question …loudly! Somewhere down the line this may give some gumption to those gutless Congressmen and women…and to Presidents.
Optimism is grand, but it has to have some basis in visible fact. Dazza.
dazza,
You are right. No denying it. But, I do respect Uri Avnery and figure that if one is heartened, even briefly, it is a good thing. I hope, more than expect, that Obama will finally do something to pull Israel into line. It doesn’t have to be much, it may not be much, but from Avnery’s perspective he has done something.
In many ways it does not matter. The Israelis are making their own bed and that will be one state with equal rights for all. It might take another 5-10 years to happen but making a Palestinian state impossible means that the only solution is a one-state solution.
We have discussed this before, but, the psychological dysfunction of Israeli society only increases. Apparently last week they closed down a Palestinian cultural festival. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot… no, head! Shades of the Afrikaners at their worst, not to mention countless other tyrants.
Excerpt:
Armed Israeli police last night tried to halt the opening night of a prominent Palestinian literary festival in Jerusalem when they ordered a Palestinian theatre to close.
The week-long festival, supported by the British council and Unesco, has brought several high-profile international authors – among them Henning Mankell, Michael Palin and Ahdaf Soueif – on a speaking tour of Jerusalem and the West Bank."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/24/israeli-police-close-palesti…
before you start cracking open the champers… http://www.theage.com.au/world/netanyahu-rejects-obamas-call-to-freeze-s…
Yes rosross uri Avnery is, as you say, "a reliable and respected commentator" That is if you believe in what Uri Avnery believes in. let’s take a quick look at this "respected commentator".
What is not well known is that Uri Avnery’s original name was Helmut
Osterman, born in Germany, and he was an admirer of Nazism.
In 1941, Avnery wrote a pro-Nazi article in the Paris journal "Shem",
whose contents were later revealed by the Hebrew University Orientalist
Prof. Yehoshua Porat in his book "Shelach V’At B’yado" (page 182). Herr
Avnery was also fond of using the concept of "Hebrew Blood" in a racial
sense, in the same way as Hitler spoke of German Aryan Blood. In those
days he was anti-Marxist, although today has no problem with associating
himself with Stalinists. Back then he repeatedly expressed admiration for
the great job Hitler was doing in remolding and renewing the German
nation. Avnery was an open admirer of Nazi propagandist Alfred Rosenberg,
adopted the latter’s rhetoric, and repeatedly declared that he saw himself
as the Hebrew Alfred Rosenberg (which, in a sense, he is). Avnery ran a
"journal" called The Struggle, an obvious imitation of the name "Mein
Kampf". He ran his own one-man party, whose official salute was a Nazi
raised hand.
Avnery in those days advocated creation of a Semitic "race" that would
lead the Middle East to greatness when combined with a new Hebraic
non-Jewish culture. As such, he advocated the end of the Jewish people as
a national entity and expansion of the new race into its "Semitic
Lebensraum" (yes, he used that Nazi concept!). He later wrote of his dream
for a new and better Hitler emerging, an anti-Nazi Hitler who will lead
the struggle for peace and will promote the Palestinian cause (well, at
least he got THAT part right!).
Avnery then left for Israel/Palestine. In the 60s he was the publisher of the semi-pornographic scandal sheet "Haolam Hazeh," Israel’s answer to National Enquirer in the US. Avnery ran for Knesset and got voted in briefly on a protest vote by the same sorts of people who might vote for Alfred E. Neuman or for Homer Simpson in other places.
If this fits your definition of “respected commentator” there’s nothing to quibble about.
Comment deleted as it was off-topic
It troubles me that many people cannot make the separation between a man of peace and a man of politics. Really, it is no small error.
Was Obama elected because of his ability and desire to bring about peace? NO
Was Netanyahu elected because of his ability and desire to bring about peace? HELL NO (pun intended)
So can we get off this fantasy ride that has people believe either of these men really has a peaceful agenda?
As far as the Jewish lobby are concerned, I wouldn’t worry. They can propagate all the bullshit, lies and intimidation they want to. I respect freedom of speech, and that includes the likes of Iranian leaders to propagate their own view of history.
I like the analogy of the pizza… the State of Israel is definately eating the pizza before it is divided. And might I suggest that the State of Israel will take all the pizza, leaving the burnt crusts for the Palestinians. Oh, the irony!
Avnery was taken to Palestine by his father when he was 11 years old in 1934. I think that diatribe is a trifle confused with someone else.
IBerlin,
You have to provide links to substantiate what you say about Avnery. I agree with Maryj, I think you have mixed him up with someone else.
However, I would add, I find him reliable in terms of not what he may or may not have done in the past, but in terms of what he writes and how well he foresees or foretells outcomes and describes situations.
What is the matter with you people? Do you know why Israel has more land than it used to? Because people kept attacking them from that land!
Israel left Gaza and the Palestinians are using that land to attack Israel. Israel left behind buildings and technology purchased with donated money. And what did the Palestinians do? They destroyed it all.
What concession has Palestine EVER made to Israel? If Palestinians want peace they can have it: just stop killing Israelis.
Palestinians have repeated, purposefully attacked Israeli citizens. They have a museum in honor of the pizza parlor attack where innocent teenagers were murdered. They honor and praise suicide bombers. Mothers raise their sons to kill Jews.
Israel has every right to be on the defense against Iran, who has continually threatened to wipe them off the map. And you would be naive to think they would stop there. And Israel has every right to expect America to be their ally.
But on one thing you are all right: Israel has no friend in Barack Obama. One item on a long list of reasons why he worries me as my president. The fact that you are all so dazzled by him makes me worry about you. Barack Obama cares about one thing: Barack Obama. Not what is best for America, not what’s best for Israel; not what’s best for Palestine. And I hope you never need him; his reaction would sure to disappoint.
AYen,
Every time Israel’s name pops up, along comes someone like you to spread the propaghanda.
Israel planned to seize land before Israel was even created. Israel started the war in 1967, which was used as a pretext to grab the West Bank and Gaza.
Since pulling out of Gaza, Israel has mainained it’s vice like grip on the place. It contols all air, land ans sea access and has maintained an illegal blockade on Gaza for the last 2 years. Do you remember what Israel did when they were on the receiving end of a blockade. They declared it an act of war.
Israel left nothing behind when the settlers withdrew. The settlers were paid to leave all buildings in tact, but they left behind a scorched earth and devastated the place. After withdrawing, Israel fired 7,700 shells into gaza over the 12 months that followed.
The ones doing all the killing are Israel, but a factor of 10:1. As for peace, that comes with a price. if Israel wants peace, all it has to do is return the land it stole and allow the a state of Palestine to emerge.
Israel all wars since 1948, except the 1973 war.
>> They have a museum in honor of the pizza parlor attack where innocent teenagers were murdered.
and Israel celebrated the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the Kind David Hotel in 2006. They also erected a monument the terrorist attack. they even elected 2 terrorist leaders tot he office of Prime Minister.
The grave of Baruck Goldstein has become a shrine.
Iran is no threat to Israel. it has hnever attacked Israel nor even threated to attack. Israel fears Iran because it cannot tolerate a country in the Middle east that can challenge it’s supremacy. Iran has never threatened to wipe Israel off the map. That lie was debunked years ago, but Israel repeatedly threatens Iran with attack.
Israel has no right to expect America to be their ally. Without America, Israel would cease to exist, yet Israel behaves as though America should just shut up and sign it’s cheques.
let’s hope Obama finally tells Israel to grow up and stop behaving like a spoiled and deranged child. It’s about time Israel was forced to be accountable and cease to be a rogue, racist and terrorist state.
It’s no secret that American’s insidious relationship with Israel has been very dangerous for the US. it’s time to cut Israel loose and let them sink or swim.
AYen,
The people who kept attacking Israel were and are the indigenous people of Palestine who had been dispossessed by the creation of Israel. In other words, you blame those who are colonised, not those who colonise. By your criteria the Australian Aborigines were to blame, not the English settlers who colonised them. Sorry, your view holds no weight in a civilized world.
When Israel left Gaza it destroyed all of the illegal settlements, with the army bulldozing every house on every street, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5281714.stm
leaving, I have read, a few greenhouses which were useless because they then refused to allow anything in (seeds and plants) or anything out (so crops rotted.)
As to Palestinians attacking Israeli citizens. Well, the American Indians attacked the European colonists, as did the New Zealand Maoris and the Australian Aborigines and the Canadian Indians and Eskimos so it is hardly surprising that the indigenous people of Palestine should attack those who are colonising them.
Palestinians have used suicide bombers but the Zionist colonists used bombs to dispossess and occupy Palestine. What is the difference? Other than the fact that the Palestinians use them to free themselves and the Zionists to dispossess and colonise.
Please post links to substantiate your claim that Palestinians have a museum in honour of the pizza parlour attack. Even if it were true, there are links which can be posted of the shrine of Bharuch Goldstein, the Israeli mass murderer who slaughtered more than a dozen Palestinians at prayer.
And if Palestinians honour and praise their freedom fighters who give their lives in the fight for freedom, how does that equate with Israeli schoolchildren writing ‘messages’ on missiles which will murder and maim not only Palestinian children but Lebanese children as well?
Palestinian mothers may well raise their children to kill Israelis (not Jews) but Israeli mothers raise both sons and daughters to imprison, murder, maim, torture, subjugate, occupy, colonise and terrorize Palestinians. In a court of law which ‘mother’ do you think would be able to claim mitigating factors? Correct, the Palestinian mother who lives in one of the ‘concentration camps’ guarded by Israeli soldiers in Gaza or on the West Bank.
I take it then you don’t believe that people living under occupation have any right to freedom? You don’t believe that the black south Africans had a right to free themselves from apartheid; that the Russians did not have a right to fight German occupation; that the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were terrorists using their families as human shields because they continued to live with them while fighting against German occupation?
And, on your other point, Iran has never threatened to wipe Israel off the map. Please post links showing this. Links can be posted showing an accurate translation of the Iranian Prime Minister (who by the way has no military power in Iran) saying that ‘the Zionist entity would be wiped from the pages of history.’ As it will, as it should be. The Zionist entity however, is not Israel, merely its fascist government.
And Israel has no right to expect anyone to be their ally. No nation does. Nations do not have friends they have interests. As long as it is in American interests to have Israel as an ally it will remain an ally. When it is no longer in American interests Israel will no longer be an ally.
Yes IBerlin,
I too woudl be most interested in your sources re Avnery.
Avnery was a commando soldier in 1948. He was himself personally involves in the creation of Israel.
Consider this bizzare statement.
"Barack Obama cares about one thing: Barack Obama. Not what is best for America, not what’s best for Israel; not what’s best for Palestine."
What better example can there be of the inverted reality the Israeli amen corner inhabit? Since when has it taken courage for a US president to lie prostrate for Israel? Given that every terrorism expert cites uncontionaly support for Israel as one fo the key reasons for the 911 attacks, how does unconditional support for ISrale benefit the US? How does standing by while 1,300 Palestinians are maccascred benefit Palestinians?
Even Israeli appologists who were opposed to the Netenyahu/Lieberman extrmist cabal commign to power in Israel, can’t bring themselves to accept that Israel is headed off a cliff.
I am wondering where Ayen gets the idea that people are dazzled by Obama. The only reason Obama is relevant in this instance is because he is the President of the United States, which, for the moment, is the strongest military power (sadly also the biggest internationalt hug) and the biggest backer, funder and supporter of Israel’s tyranny and therefore the only one who might, just might, have any ability to end Israel’s reign of terror and bring freedom to the Palestinians.
I don’t think there are many who think he will, just quite a few like myself who hope he might. He won’t do it because it helps the Palestinians…. if it happens it will be because it is perceived to be in American interests. Sadly, on America’s track record that does not augur well since they seem to be singularly erratic and irrational in how they define their interests.
Which is why, for the moment, I choose to take heart from Uri Avnery’s words. One must always hope.
that should have been biggest international thug but I guess if you are on the goodside of the Americans you get a hug!
Compared to the contempt the world and most of the US public had for the illiterate, uncurious and simple minded president they were stuck with for 8 years, Obama, even with all his faults, must come as a shock. I suspect that’s what Ayen means by being dazzled with Obama. Even though it’s been nearly 4 months since his innaugurantion, geetting over the Bush administration is a bit like waking up from a nightmare and still feeling spooked well into the day.
Shingo, well put. Obama actually seems intelligent and reasonably informed. It doesn’t mean he isn’t a puppet being tweaked by others but it’s a relief to hear someone sounding as if he is rational.
You of the loony left can’t have it both ways.
1. You hate Israel because it is an ally of America, (so is Australia for that matter, do you hate yourselves too?)
2. You hate Israel because most are Jews. Obama has’nt yet made this apparent.
3. The Palestinians would not be capable of running anything more than a shuk. If they exclude Israeli Jews they may as well go and take their camels and imshy oiff.
Barack may be smart enough to realize he needs Israelis and Jews more than they need him.
Remember Bill Clitoris on the white house lawn, with the fatal handshake with Rabin and Arafat?
He may as well have given them both the kiss of death after smoking one of those famous oval office cigars.
As far as ad hominem attacks by the intellectual inelligentsia on this post, come on goys and gals, you can do better surely?
Those tired old anti Israel and thinly veiled anti jewish remarks!
Most of us are nearly choking to death on our gefilte fish and shmaltz herring bagels at the inanity and sheer stupidity of your opinions.
Most of my brethren writing also should take heed that these low lives we have been to uni with and met from one time or another, usually don’t have the wherewithal to do much more than cat call from the back ranks, or snipe with the likes of Mel Gibson type remarks.
American presidents come and go, and it is how they treat Israel that determines how quickly and what fortunes their country sustains.
White house or Uncle Tom’s cabin?, Barack, it’s your call.
Shalom Chaverim
P.S NM these disaffected Israelis and whatevers, really their opinions are a dime adozen, sorry, shekel.
We have the same here, now gone elsewhere, remember Sol Trajillo, Telstra mate! $31 million dollar man. He thinks we are the most racist country ever. And that’s for free!!
revilo,
Where would you Zionist wingnut be without your straw men arguments and ad hominems?
This is compoiunded by the fact that you’re not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Australia is an ally of America, and we love our country.
Most Jews do not live in Israel and no, we don’t hate Jews and as it turns out, most Jews woudl rather live in Australia, the US and the UK than the facist state called Israel. Your logic would suggest that people only hated Hitler becasue he was German. Liek I said, you’re cute, but not very smart.
Your suggeston that Palestinians are incapable or running a society is a typically racist lie. Of course, it is easily debunked by the fact that the Palestinians had a thriving society before Isael was created. In fact, Palestine had a constitution as early as 1914, somethign the Israelis can’t seem to get right after 60 years.
Obama doesn’t need Israel, and nor does the US, any more than they need another 911 After all, Obama signs the checks that stop Israel from descending into chaos.
Yes we remember the handshake with Rabin and Arafat, the one that took place just before a derranged Zionist settler associated with Liebermans terrorist Kach group put a bullet into Rabin. Probably a mate of yours.
The rest if your post is typical facist, racist filth that we have come to expect from the Askemazim. Of course, if Israel was worth living in, you wouldn’t be pretending to be an Israeli from the confort of your home in Oz. It’s OK. you’re not alone. After all, nearly 1 million Israeli Jews have decided to live outside the country, many of whom are unlikely to return. Since 2007, emigration has been outpacing immigration in Israel. Only 69 percent of Jewish Israelis say they want to stay there, and a quarter of Israelis are considering leaving, including almost half of all young people. 44 percent of Israelis say they would be ready to leave if they could find a better standard of living elsewhere, so poverty is alive and well in Israel.
Over 100,000 Israelis have acquired European passports.
So you see revilo, all your BS aside, Israel’s days are numbered. Shalom
I haven’t read the story closely but here’s my digestion:
300 million Arab neighbours, mostly hostile, not including Iranian Persians also hostile.
Legacy of the Holocaust. 7 million Jewish in Isreal and 7 million in USA and elsewhere.
Nuclear armed according to federation of american scientists maybe 100 plus weapons.
Obama has more loyalty to Black American than Jewish America who don’t have any loyalty to eachother much except maybe political money and personal views of justice.
Iran had at least 1M dead in the war with Iraq boosted by the USA. China guarantees Iran’s safety from military satellites to ensure oil pipeline supplies.
Solution: Israel delivers a free viable Palestinian state in return for Iran declining nuclear weapons. Iranian, Israeli and USA presidents win joint Nobel Peace Prize. The audacity of hope.
Oh and Yigal Amir who assassinated Yitzak Rabin, and the bogus ‘settlers’ are racist aggressors.
Oh and the lull in rocket fire july to Oct 2008 proved a virtual ceasefire works while a continued blockade and starvation will always destroy a perfectly good truce. Which is a conflict the ‘settlers’ actually prefer to continue their colonial land grabs.
Otherwise here’s to all the beautiful peace loving and decent Jewish and Arabic and Persian people out there.
Ayen: beware! rosross and shingo are one and the same person. he is part of a nazi internet propaganda unit sent forth to infiltrate websites such as these and to spread their lies and hate! he hates debate and, rather, chooses to employ red herrings than evidence. you know you have him on the ropes when he starts spamming with articles from and useless links. beware!
Tom,
Those 300 million Arabs live in 22 states that have all signed a pact to normalize relations with Israel and recognize Israel. Israel has rejected the offer becaue it would mean returning land it stole.
None of the Arabs or Palestinians had anything to do with the Holocaust.
The state of Israel was conceived in the 1890’s, while it’s creation was hastened by WWII.
The fact that most Jews live outside of Israel proves that there is no need for a Jewish state if it’s purpose it to keep Jews safe.
Israel has over 200 nukes.
What does Obama’s policies have to do with Black America and what proof is there that Obama has a loyalty to Black America?
There is no proof that Iran has a nuclar weapons program. In fact, the 2007 NIE flatly states that there is no evidence of one and the IAEA continues to insist that there is no evidence of one.
felicianixon,
How are you darlin?
Glad to see you are up to your usual taunts, while yourself sidestepping debate with your own sprinkling of red herrings and ad homimens.
I love debate so bring it on.
BTW. I know how you hate links. Facts and historical accounts are so anti Semitic aren’t they?
revilo: "Barack may be smart enough to realize he needs Israelis and Jews more than they need him." - amen! This has always been the case and continues to be so more now than ever. Interestingly, Australia is also sending over 40 of it’s best and brightest (http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-to-head-mission-to-israel-2009052…) in an attempt to further strengthen the bonds between the two countries. Interestingly, you will note in the article that the representative of the Australians for Palestine will not be joining the delegation (although he was invited) as he does not wish to "hear others speak". how telling!
"Israel has over 200 nukes. " - is this so? source?…didn’t think so! you’re a nice young man, but not the brightest.
BTW felicianixon,
Seeing as you’re the one defending a militarist apartheid state, who’s scociety is based on a doctrine of racial supremacy, that practices enthnic cleasing, collective punishment, the implementations of military check points against an ethnic class, mass incarceration and the running of a massive open air prision, and who has bulddozed tens of thousands of homes belonging to that enthic grgoup, it might not be very smart to be labelling others as Nazis, if you know what I mean.
revilo: you will note that in the few days that there were no israel articles on NM, rosross and shingo (who are seemingly the same young man) were surprsingly silent but have now returned to life…adds even more weight to the nazi propaganda theory!
"Seeing as you’re the one defending a militarist apartheid state, who’s scociety is based on a doctrine of racial supremacy, that practices enthnic cleasing, collective punishment, the implementations of military check points against an ethnic class, mass incarceration and the running of a massive open air prision, and who has bulddozed tens of thousands of homes belonging to that enthic grgoup, it might not be very smart to be labelling others as Nazis, if you know what I mean." - i think you misundertand me, I am against Iran! silly boy.
"Israel has over 200 nukes. " - is this so? source?…didn’t think so!
Talking to yourself again felicianixon? Wow, you are testy tonight.
Anyway, back to the debate right?
US Army Confirms Israeli Nukes
http://www.military.com/news/article/March-2009/us-army-confirms-israeli…
"But a Defense Department study completed last year offers what may be the first time in a unclassified report that Israel is a nuclear power. On page 37 of the U.S. Joint Forces Command report, the Army includes Israel within "a growing arc of nuclear powers running from Israel in the west through an emerging Iran to Pakistan, India, and on to China, North Korea, and Russia in the east.""
"Several years later investigative reporter Seymour Hersh published "The Samson Option," detailing Israel’s strategy of massive nuclear retaliation against Arab states in the event it felt its very existence was threatened. Israel’s nuclear arsenal has been estimated to range from 200 to 400 warheads."
Calls for Olmert to resign after nuclear gaffe
"Israel’s prime minister, Ehud Olmert, was yesterday trying to fend off accusations of ineptitude and calls for his resignation after he accidentally acknowledged for the first time that Israel had nuclear weapons."
He told Germany’s Sat.1 channel on Monday evening: "Iran, openly, explicitly and publicly, threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons, as America, France, Israel and Russia?"
So tell me, when are you going to start telling everyone how Israel invested Microsoft Windows?
sheep for brains bleats that "Israel has over 200 nukes. " and in the same sentence whines that "There is no proof that Iran has a nuclar weapons program. "…sheep for brains forgets that unsubstantiated claims might work on young arts students but are not sufficient at the adult’s tables…but sheep for brains is still a young lamb….bbbaaaahhhhh!
"i think you misundertand me, I am against Iran! silly boy"
Oh but you are indeed a big fan of the militarist apartheid state, who’s scociety is based on a doctrine of racial supremacy, that practices enthnic cleasing, collective punishment, the implementations of military check points against an ethnic class, mass incarceration and the running of a massive open air prision, and who has bulldozed tens of thousands of homes belonging to that enthic goups.
Guess I shoudl have added, "and invented Microsoft Windows" right?
Silly girl.
sheep for brains screams "Anyway, back to the debate right?" and then goes off on a tangent for a change…of course sheep for brains doesn’t actually provide any substantiation of his claims…such is the way of sheep for brains
elicianixon,
"sheep for brains bleats that "Israel has over 200 nukes. " and in the same sentence whines that "There is no proof that Iran has a nuclar weapons program. "
Yeah I know how you hate that little thing called evidence, but unlike Israel., who recently at the idea of being subject to the NPT, Iran is not only a signatory to the NPT, but has received a clean bill of heath from both the IAEA and 16 US intelligence agencies.
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/05/06/israel-reacts-with-shock-dismissal-at…
sheep for brains bleats "So tell me, when are you going to start telling everyone how Israel invested Microsoft Windows?"…when he probably meant "invented"…and still hides from the truth…sheep for brains isn’t capable of original thought…maybe when he grows up and/or finishes first year arts…bbaaahhhhhhh!
"sheep for brains screams "Anyway, back to the debate right?" and then goes off on a tangent for a change…of course sheep for brains doesn’t actually provide any substantiation of his claims…such is the way of sheep for brains"
You call this debating? Thanks for proving my point.
Tell us about how cell phones we invented in Israel felicia?
sheep for brains whines about "evidence"and then hides behind rhetoric and red herrings…poor little lamb…you’ll learn
sheep for brains screams "You call this debating? Thanks for proving my point." and slips deeper into his own little hole…poor sheep…can’t think for himself
So that’s the little game your going to play it is Felicia?
After RossRoss and I smacked you around during the last Israeli related thread where you tried to explain how you weren’t religious, you’re not even going to bother debating, but resorting to taunts.
So childish. How old are you may I ask?
felicianixon, also fighting the good fight I see.
Interesting how their/his knowledge is deficient, to the extent that in 1914, the whole M.E was run by Ottoman Turks, my grand father, all joking aside, was conscripted by Turkey to fight aginst the allies, probably at bloody Galipoli.
How on flaming earth could there ave been a Palestinian government?
Jordan occupied all of Jerusalem the west bank, which is so called Palestine, although my late mother refered to herself as Palestinian and Jewish, and she lived in Haifa. She was born there in 1910 of Russian Jewish refugees.
She could have wound up like those poor b’s the Armenians, had the War not been won in 1918!… slaughtered by the Turks. My grandfather never returned and was never compensated.
So as for the neo nazis life is never that simple.
As far as arguing, I fear it’s Hitler and Goebbels all over again. Tell the lie, and make it big and unbelievable. The public will be more likely to swallow it.
felicianixon thanks for pointing it out. I wondered why some of these "intelligentsia" don’t seem to post any opinions about other stories in NM.
Peace
Oli aka Tzvi
revilo, if for one second i thought that sheep for brains was actually capable of original thought, i would be happy to debate the issue. but how, i ask, can you debate with historical revsionists, oblivious to generally accepted facts? instead, sheep for brains needs a few more years out in the paddock to mature and develop some original thought…
revilo: "felicianixon thanks for pointing it out. I wondered why some of these "intelligentsia" don’t seem to post any opinions about other stories in NM." - the reason for this is clear: their orders are to only "attack" jews. as they are not able to make decisions for themselves, this is limiting for them.
revilo: "felicianixon thanks for pointing it out. I wondered why some of these "intelligentsia" don’t seem to post any opinions about other stories in NM." - they don’t have "opinions" like you and i, they have only what they are told to write.
revilo
Your knowledge of hsitory is sadly lacking.
The Ottoman Turks may have ruled the regios, but they also recognized property rights, Indeed, at teh time that Isrle was created, Jews only owned 7% of the land and Palestinians owned 50%.
As for local goivernments, in the following link you will find histical photographs of Palestinians gather at the Grand Serai (local government offices) in July 1908, to celebrate the al-Hurriyah Revolution (i.e. the Young Turks Revolution) against Sultan Abdul Hamid and in favor of the restoration of the constitution and the holding of Parliamentary elections. (via Walid Khalidi, Before Their Diaspora).
As you can see, your little theory that Palestinians are incapable of runing a socieity is based in excrement.
https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&zx=20ehst28ygaj&shva=1#search/angry/…
Indeed, in 1922, all the people in the region of Palestine were referred to as Palestinians.
As you can see, Palestine was not a land without a people when Israle was created.
The reference/title Palestine was determined by the British Mandate of Palestine, in 1922 and included all the land lying to the west of the Jordan River; that is, all of what is now Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip. The term “Palestinian” referred to all people residing there, regardless of race or religion. Those granted citizenship, were granted “Palestinian citizenship”. That included descendents of Judah who were there. For the most part Palestinians got along fine until the Russian and European refugees began to arrive.
“… anyone with roots in the land that is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is technically a Palestinian …”
(Source: The online encyclopedia; Jewish Virtual Library)
In other words, any Jew in Israel today, who descends from a jewish citizen in British mandated Palestine, is technically a Palestinian. Chew on that for a while.
The name Palestine didn’t come out of thin air! Historically Romans refered to the coastal area below the Jordan River as Palaestina. The name denoted an area as opposed to a government or nation and hung on right up through the nineteenth century when the area refered to as Palestine was defined as extending from the sea to the caravan route. Or as extending from the sea to the desert.
Tell me revilo. Hpw does someone with such an afinity with Israel maneg to becoemn so ignorant?
"they don’t have "opinions" like you and i, they have only what they are told to write."
That’s hillarious comming from someone who’s opinion is based in religious dioctrine. Too funny.
Do you have any more jokes Felicia?
sheep for brains howls "Tell me revilo. Hpw does someone with such an afinity with Israel maneg to becoemn so ignorant?"…yet i ask how even a first year arts student can have such poor spelling…sheep for brains continues to post bogus links and revsionist history…bbaaaahhhhhhh!
"the reason for this is clear: their orders are to only "attack" jews."
Another lie of course, but you can;t really come up with an argument without lies can you Felicia?
No Jews are mentioned in any of the critcisms on these boards. Israel is a racist, murderous, terrorist state and deserves condemnation. That’s al there is to it.
Don’t blame me for the fact that you support such extremis.
sheep for brains cries "That’s hillarious comming from someone who’s opinion is based in religious dioctrine"…what is "dioctrine"?…is it the same chemical that they feed young sheep to keep them in line?
rossross
My applogies for misrepresenting your position.
sheep for brains howls "Israel is a racist, murderous, terrorist state and deserves condemnation. That’s al there is to it."…but who is this mysterious "al"? is he sheep for brains commander?…and sheep for brains bleats "Don’t blame me for the fact that you support such extremis"…but who is "extremis" i wonder? is he/she latin?…bbaaahhhhhhhh!
BTW RosRoss,
Need I point out that you were referred to as a Nazi by Felicia?
RossRoss,
My reference to you was based on the fact that we were collectively referred to as Nazis. Having said that, I do not have a cause other than to voice my condemnation of the state of Israel and it’s policies.
sheep for brains cries "Need I point out that you were referred to as a Nazi by Felicia?"…is sheep for brains feeling cold and alone?….is sheep for brains unsure how to proceed without someone by his side?….poor sheep for brains…keep scrambling little lamb….keep scrambling…
sheep for brains falls into his own trap…"I do not have a cause other than to voice my condemnation of the state of Israel and it’s policies."…for that is all sheep for brains is programmed to do…no opinion or thought on other matters…only condemnation for israel…how telling…por sheep for brains in coming undone…it’s almost difficult to watch…
Interesting fixation you have there with lambs Felicia. Does that stem from Passover connection where your desire to kill something is stirring? I can understand it, you having spent time in a state where killing is a blood sport.
Is that what you’re feeling now Felicia?
sheep for brains howls "I can understand it, you having spent time in a state where killing is a blood sport."…poor sheep for brains is unaware that unlike his beloved australia, hunting is banned in israel and is considered inhumane…poor sheep for brains is slipping
RossRoss,
I’ll respectfully decist from trying to explain myself to you. I cannot for the life of me imagine what you find racist about anything I have said that has offended you, but I wish you well.
licianixon,
Hunting may be banned in Israel but your beloved IDF has a penchant for using Palestinian childern as targets, so one could argue that hunting is alive and well in Israel.
I have to laugh at the suggestion that hunting is regarded as inhumane, while the incineration of 400 children in Gaza is nobel and worthy.
as a jew and as an israeli i freely admit to be primarily concerned with the goings-on in israel but sheep for brains is simply obsessed! clearly sheep for brains has been programmed to focus on one issue only…sadly, sheep for brains is blind to the death, carnage and corruption happening in other parts of the world…this is how we know that sheep for brains is a bigot.
sheep for brains howls "your beloved IDF has a penchant for using Palestinian childern as targets, so one could argue that hunting is alive and well in Israel." but again provides no substantiation…"I have to laugh at the suggestion that hunting is regarded as inhumane, while the incineration of 400 children in Gaza is nobel and worthy"…does sheep for brains mean "noble"?…i wonder id sheep for brains has finished high school yet?
Excuse me RossRoss,
I noticed that there are posts on this thread from someone called RosRoss and yourself. Are you the same person?
Felicia,
Yes I am obsessed with one issue only in regard to Israle because the maatter of the Palestianians is the elephant in the room. What other issue would you have us discuss on a thread about the one issue?
sorry sheep for brains, whilst making a fool out of you is fun (but too easy) and watching you struggle in your downwards spiral is oddly amusing, us adults have to go to work in the morning and thus require sleep. i am sure that sheep for brains has a busy day at the uni cafe tomorrow…i wonder if sheep count humans in order to get to sleep?…bbaaaaahhhhhhhh…..
Don’t apologise Felicia,
While I have a full time job, I also have a 2 month old child that I have to tend to while my wife gets some sleep, so sleep for me is a luxury.
Young single people like yourself have it too good.
Incidentally Felicia,
If you are still awake, I do realize that your anger and frustration are what compel you to resort to name calling, because let’s face it, with all the posts you’ve made, you haven’t even tried to contribute anything to this debate. You’re simply here to make noise.
I noticed that Norman Finkelstein provokes the same reaction when he debates Zionists like AIPAC spokesman or shill like Martin Indyk. They are so incensed by the fact they can’t get way with their lies that they refuse to refer to him by name.
It must be part of the process of denial.
sheep for brains bleats "While I have a full time job, I also have a 2 month old child that I have to tend to while my wife gets some sleep"…well, little sheep, when your kids grow up and you get a real job, maybe then they’ll program you with some new thoughts…until then though….baaahhhh!
Due to time differences between CA and Australia I missed the reaction to my post. And I’m sorry I did.
Although I have to say it sounds like you all read and memorized Jimmy Carter’s book where he made claims about Israel that he has had to back away from.
The biggest demonstration in Israel by Israelis was against their own country when a Zionist group bombed the King David Hotel and killed innocent civilians.
Show me one example, just one, of Palestinians protesting against all the innocent Israelis that have been victims of terrorists. Against the teenagers that have died in discos and pizza parlors and those who survived but live a diminished life because they were injured by nails dipped in rat poison from bombs.
Reasonable people can disagree on most things, but the Israeli / Palestine conflict is not one of them. Israel has a right to live in peace without the threat of annihilation and without suicide bombers walking in their midst. If that means building a wall and treating Iran like the threat Iran claims to be, so be it.
To call Israel evil and refer to its government as an apartheid state undermines the meaning and victims of real evil and and real apartheid.