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rosross 09/01/09 2:32PM

Anthony you are right, Israel has gone too far but I have thought for a long time it would have to before anything could or would be done.
ironically because Israel has barred the world’s press from Gaza to hid its war crimes, the world has seen images via the ordinary people and Al-Jazeera which are not censored by media management or journalistic bias. It is heartening to read people like Avi Shlaim and Burg because while others can do much, it is only when Jews and Israelis decide they want to know the truth that something can change. The truth is out there but Jews and Israelis are being lied to. For many of course it is easier to believe the lie but increasingly many can no longer live with themselves as they live the lie.
There is a serious dysfunction, if not insanity at work. If a person presented to a psychiatric clinic with the beliefs and stories put out by Israel and its supporters they would be immediately committed.
The holocaust dead must be turning in their grave. The IDF is the new gestapo and the Israeli State the new Nazi Germany. They did not die for this. But this reality is so incomprehensible to Israelis and their supporters because it runs counter to the progrmame they have in their heads that they are incapable of absorbing it unless they are forced.
That is however the problem with insanity. The insane who cannot be treated and who must be physically held are those who do not believe there is anything wrong with them. It is only when friends and family, in order to protect them, can take no more, that they force them into help and a protective place.
This is what Israel needs. Israelis deserve no less. If they are to have any kind of nation at all in the future they must be stopped now.
The Palestinians will survive because they have time and right on their side but Israel will not because the rot and canker will force the only sane ones to leave and the irrevocably insane will be left. Out of true madness only comes destruction.

Rockjaw 09/01/09 3:36PM

Anthony, thanks - we need many more just like it.

For those sick of the filtered news here is a link to a source of real news surrounding the murder and the genocide occurring in Gaza:-

http://www.presstv.ir/watch_live.aspx

denko 09/01/09 4:11PM

Thanks Anthony

Hmmmm ….
The ontology of a monotheistic faith is that although a facet of the deity be destroyed, the God corpus remains intact.

This is the survivalist system to the god concept that evolves through the trials and tribulations of its faithful.

Possibly the constant destruction of the theistic facets of a pantheon of gods leads inexorably to monotheism, much in the way that
Galapagos finches’ beaks will sharpen or blunt into an array of appropriate surviving shapes and sizes.

When those ancient sons and daughters of Jacob stumbled out onto the plains of Sinai after an epic struggle with Egypt, and the neo-decimation of its people, their Gods where two. Firstly the pantheon of Egyptian gods (recently reduced to one by pharaoh Amenhotep) of the nobles and pharaohs, and the nobles’ adopted son Moses and Secondly the Brahmin calf god of the Jewish poor and enslaved…

The desert and forty years finally wrought and wrangled those two deities into one and many of the faithful that had survived the Passover died in fractious and bloody Hebrew infighting.

Yet a merged monotheistic and uncontestable God concept emerged.. ‘thou shall have no other god’ it decreed. Yahweh is one, Allah is one, God is one

The strength of that god concept has survived the millennia, and although fractured at times, and added to at others, is the core to modern, Abrahamic , Judeo-Christian and Muslim thought…

A powerful meme indeed.

Today the IDF is to many Israelis, Jewish supporters and Zionists and believers about the world - a very import new facet to be added to that god concept. These persons believe that their survival is dependant on a strong army.

More importantly, there are even more non-Jewish believers about the world whose God concept concurs with that of those Jews, for they too fear the Armageddon foretold, and hence their survival is dependant on a strong IDF army too.

(Perhaps in extreme analysis it is the non-Jew meme that greater defines of what a Jew is and what a Jew ought be and what a Jew is allowed to be…)

But in this case not only a strong army, but rather an indefatigable and invincible army is dictated for the stakes are simply too high. ‘Never again..’ is the understandable creed.

Sadly war gods, are ironically the weakest of all the gods in the Gestalt of the God pantheon. War gods are the most mortal of all the Gods, for their blood lies in mortal death across a myriad battlefields too numerous to mention.

Let us hope and pray – God willing – that the immortal god of the Jew does not fracture and allow itself to be set up, and so to risk death on the alter of some modern day Thor¿

For the fate of the faithful; the fate of —> all <— the faithful, Jew, Christian and Muslim are so devilishly intertwined!

dunno4sure¿

scottmitchell 09/01/09 4:18PM

^ What he said.

Great article Antony.

rosross 09/01/09 4:51PM

denko,
There is nothing wrong with having a strong army. Although one would wish we lived in a worle where one is not needed.
The problem with Israel’s strong army is that it is used to occupy, colonise, bomb and destroy both the Palestinians and Israel’s neighbours. It is an army of war and aggression not an army of peace and defence. It equates not with Australia’s army but with America’s army of today and Hitler, Stalin’s, and countless other murderous armies of the past.
By your argument it is the Palestinians who require a strong army to defend themselves from Israel. For you seem to argue that any nation has a right to a strong army. It also argues that Israel’s neighbours are in need of strong armies and nuclear weapons to protect themselves from Israel.
Then again, look where Israel’s strong army has got it. It is a pariah State, a rogue nation, increasingly hated not just in the Arab world but around the world; it has a corrupted and debased military culture, a corrupted and debased social culture; a corrupted and debased religious culture and it HAS NOT GOT PEACE nor does it have security.
The level of hatred grows with every war crime and human rights abuse committed by Israel’s army. In truth, one can only argue that Israel should not have an army at all. there would be much less death, destruction and misery.

rosross 09/01/09 4:56PM

As to your theories on God. There’s another theory and it is gaining in acceptance amongst archeologists simply because they can now translate more Egyptian hieroglyphics …. where, guess what, they find the stories and the prayers which were previously believed to be Jewish. It seems the likeliest story is that it was the Egyptians who came up with the monotheistic religion and that it was taken up by Akhenaton’s followers who includes a few tribes from mesopotamia, a few Egyptians and a gaggle of others who happened to be living in Egypt at the same time.
Then again, the Bible is more lies than fact, again as the archeologists are beginning to discover. Even Israeli ones accept there was never a great nation of Israel, never a great city of Jerusalem, but merely a few hebrew tribes and a few encampments along with a few other non-hebrew tribes. The Canaanites were probably never occupied. The most likely story is that the followers of Akhenaton were thrown out of Egypt … Canaan was an egyptian colony at the time so in fact, for anyone to invade and occupy the Canaanites they would have had to defeat Egypt … not possible and they settled in Canaan and that is where the Jewish religion began to develop. So the Jews are really Egyptians. There you go. Let’s partition Egypt. I’m sure they would agree. Even if they did not the precedent has been set.

rememberpalestine 09/01/09 5:42PM

rememberpalestine

Thanks Antony. I hope the voices of Jews worldwide, when added to those of Gideon Levy, Uri Avneri, Amira Haas and others within Israel, will one day bring the powers-that-be (whatever their political persuasion) in Israel and the USA to their senses. To reject militarism and embrace accommodation is the only sane and moral course.

I urge the same of Hamas, but a worrying thought niggles, "The Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank have seen the relentless expansion of Israel into their lands for the past 41 years despite endless"peace talks" and ongoing diplomatic initiatives. When diplomacy fails, maybe only armed resistance - however token - is all that is left to them in an uncaring world."

gabes 09/01/09 9:12PM

Dear God. More self-serving judenporn from self-appointed "dissenting Jew" Antony Loewenstein himself.

"The international Jewish community is divided over the latest offensive in Gaza" is the subtitle of this article. Fascinating. I look at his first reference - "A columnist in the Jerusalem Post worries that, "while the world is being fed dramatic pictures from Gaza, there are few dramatic pictures from Israel, and gaping holes in apartment buildings hit by Grad rockets can’t compete with footage from Gaza of crying children splattered in blood.""

Turns out that Herb Keinon is talking about the Israeli public diplomacy effort, and the challenges Israel faces in explaining its eminently reasonable position that it is fighting a jihadi enemy - Hamas - that seeks only to destroy it. Don’t take my word for it - read the article he misquoted and judge for yourself.

Like so many of Antony’s ridiculous claims, this imagined disunity in the Jewish community is pure confection. In reality, there is very little division in the organised Jewish community. Jewish institutions around the world are rallied behind Israel. 100 Jews who sign a letter in the Herald does not constitute disunity. If anything, it is evidence of their own ignorance and confusion.

Antony Loewenstein is not a mainstream Jewish voice. "Good!" I hear you saying. You may well enjoy hearing Loewenstein’s misguided views; his easy, self-serving criticism of his own people. But know one thing: Loewenstein is on the fringe of the fringe of the Jewish community. And his claim of Jewish division on Israel is fiction.

There is very little disunity in the Jewish community when it comes to support for Israel. That may be because we all have family and friends in southern Israel who have experienced jihadi Hamas rocket attacks. Whatever; just do not take my word for it, and do not take Loewenstein’s word for it. Look for yourself.

G

Rockjaw 09/01/09 10:42PM

Fortunately an increasing majority of Jews in Israel are also coming out in support of protest of what is being done in their name.

People like the Israeli Hadash party with it’s thousands of Jewish Israeli supporters who plan to rally in protest across Israel, or Israel’s cities, like the city of Nazareth-Illit which is expecting record crowds to attend their protest rally.

Jewish groups across the globe are coming out in protest of the genocide and the occupation with marches and rallies planned in every major USA and Canadian city.

Many cities across the EU and the UK are epxeriencing similar expressions of outrage.

Despite the propaganda and the twisted arguments from Israel’s apologists, the world’s repugnance to Israel’s behaviour is steadily growing. Let us hope that it is not too late.

Rogerio 09/01/09 10:48PM

Well said, and here is a piece by Jewish academic, Oxford professor of international relations, Avi Shlaim, who served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions which you can read here:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Jodenporn? Does that include pictures of dead and dying civilian women and children?

BPobjie 10/01/09 2:41AM

Is there any way to become a dissenting Jew other than by being self-appointed? Does gabes only recognise dissenting Jews who have been accredited by the Federation Of Dissenting Jews?

gabes 10/01/09 3:31AM

Additional results for Poll #1 Telephone poll of a representative sample of 500 adult Israeli Jews by TNS Teleseker on 8 January and published in Maariv on 9 January 2009

11 days ago the IDF began fighting against Hamas in order to stop the firing of rockets against Israel. To what extent do you support this operation?
Support 91.4% Oppose 3.8% No position/refuse reply 4.8%

[http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42224]

All organised Jewish communities around the world have expressed support for the Gaza op; for instance, here’s South Africa’s elected Jewish leaders expressing their community’s support for the Gaza op: http://blog.z-word.com/2008/03/defending-israel-in-south-africa-sa-jewis… - look out for Australia’s Jewish community support in the next couple of days. Events have been planned and our leaders will speak.

List of rallies for Israel around the world organised by their democratically elected communal organisations: http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42209

There is more, if you bothered to look. There is virtually blanket support for this operation amongst Jewish communities worldwide.

So please: don’t quote Antony Loewenstein, the Hadash Party, and Avi Shlaim as evidence of some confected rift in the Jewish consensus. Be serious. You guys have plenty of opinions about Hamas and the Palestinians, but it appears you haven’t the slightest idea of what is going on in my community. That’s what happens when you rely on Antony Loewenstein for your Jewish news.

denko 10/01/09 10:18AM

So we when would we have Moishe Moyl and Yossel Pipik rather to agree¿

Oy vey¿

dunno4sure¿

rosross 10/01/09 10:54AM

I see the Yes and No questions were ignored because they clearly demonstrate that Israel is a war criminal.Silence is an answer as well.
Gabes, it is irrelevant what Israelis and Jews think because they are lied to. They live an egregious lie which denies the reality of the people whose land they stole to establish Israel and whose land they continue to steal.
A few primitive rockets, sure, they should not be fired, but a few primitive rockets which have done little damage result in the war crime of demolishing a refugee camp where 1.5million people live and the bloody slaughter of hundreds of women and children. There’s a lack of perspective there, particularly given that the rockets re fired in the first place because Israelis keep palestinians in concentration camps and murder, abuse and subjugate them. But clearly in Israeli society occupiers are good … must have learned that from the Nazis and the occupied are the evil ones who must be killed and punished.
Just look at the sheer insanity of the Israeli position. The denial of justice and human rights for the indigenous people and an attempt to bring about genocide to rid the land of them. It can’t be done. They just hate you more and even if you killed everyone in Gaza it would not work. Even if you levelled Gaza and spread salt on the ground, let’s get biblical given that seems to be an Israeli approach, you still would not win. There are millions of Palestinians waiting to go home. World outrage would see Israelis pushed back beyond UN mandaged borders and the Palestinians given back their keys to homes in Jerusalem and elsewhere, the handing over of all illegal Israeli settlements and a right of return for Palestinians.
It is truly insane. Tell the truth to Israelis and those who support them and there is some hope of an Israeli state suriviving. Keep living this lie and you doom yourselves. The world has changed. More and more people no longer believe the lies which Israelis tell themselves. The truth is out there, that is why support for Palestinians grows and grows. It is a simple case of justice. Just as the East Timorese deserved to rid themselves of brutal occupiers and colonisers, so do the Palestinians. And they will.

rosross 10/01/09 12:54PM

Israel: Boycott, Divest, Sanction
by Naomi Klein

It’s time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa.

In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era." The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions—BDS for short—was born.
Every day that Israel pounds Gaza brings more converts to the BDS cause, and talk of cease-fires is doing little to slow the momentum. Support is even emerging among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors stationed in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the antiapartheid struggle. "The boycott on South Africa was effective, but Israel is handled with kid gloves…. This international backing must stop."

Yet many still can’t go there. The reasons are complex, emotional and understandable. And they simply aren’t good enough. Economic sanctions are the most effective tools in the nonviolent arsenal

rosross 10/01/09 1:40PM

Gabes,
Fiction : Israel the victim. Fact: Israelis the aggressors and liars.
Livni’s Big Lie
By RANNIE AMIRI

Take, for example, the recent riots by Israeli settlers in the Palestinian city of Al-Khalil, also known as Hebron. It is home to 200,000 Palestinians and 500 extremist settlers, protected day and night by Israeli soldiers. In early December and under the order of Israel’s High Court, they were evicted from a disputed building (quite gently of course) by those soldiers. During the confrontation between the two, a group of settlers went marauding through Hebron, shooting indiscriminately at Palestinian civilians while attempting to lynch others, setting cars on fire and burning down houses. A few weeks earlier, mosques in Hebron had been spray painted and desecrated with virulent anti-Islamic, anti-Arab slogans and houses had Stars of David painted on them. The reports and images of their December rampage were so disturbing that even Prime Minister Ehud Olmert could find no words to describe it other than calling it a “pogrom”.

In the case of the current Gaza onslaught, Livni’s remark in Paris that there was no humanitarian crisis in Gaza and everything is “completely as it should be” is an excellent example of The Big Lie. Its propagation has no doubt been aided by the Israeli government prohibiting journalists from entering Gaza (despite a High Court ruling ordering them to lift the ban).

philannetta 10/01/09 8:03PM

Ros, I agree with your first comment. I wonder whether even this is ‘too far’ for supporters of the occupation, though. Israel’s PR campaign has been very effective in framing this in terms of Qassams from Gaza rather than the occupation, and the powers that be in the world don’t have much of an interest in Palestinian statehood.

Fortunately, as Anthony says, Jews both in Israel and the Diaspora are speaking out. Ephraim Halevy, ex-Mossad chief, is in favour of negotiating with Hamas and says that Israel’s government refuses to do so for their own political reasons, which I’m sure most NM readers know, but which - along with other Jewish criticisms - needs to be put out there.

Gabes, we do look for ourselves, thank you, and while wars in most countries see pro-government spikes, at least one other major poll showed the opposite. There is a very broad spectrum of opinion in Israel, and this includes a strong anti-occupation movement.

Now, as you fancy yourself a man of intelligence, riddle me this: Israel was granted around 54% of the British Mandate of Palestine. Through wars until 1967, it took this amount up to around 78%, which the current peace plan would allow it to keep. Is that enough? How much does Israel need? Mediterranean to the Jordan? Nile to the Euphrates? And what place does an occupation have in the modern world? Sorry to skew the debate in favour of facts and genuine issues, but I’m sure you’re up to the task - I look forward to your reply.

Quite aside from the morality of this is the practicality - the balance of power in the world is shifting - slowly, but it is - and Israel won’t have the set of friends forever that it enjoys now. Its friends in the West have long-term problems of their own, and its friends - or non-enemies perhaps is more accurate - in the Arab world are governments who are often hated by their own people and need draconian internal security to stay in power.

How long can this situation last? If Israel decides that it can never accept a Palestinian state, it might find that a global anti-apartheid movement imposes its nightmare of nightmares - a secular one-state solution. It could take decades, but demography can be an implacable foe.

philannetta.blogspot.com

gabes 11/01/09 12:48AM

"Now, as you fancy yourself a man of intelligence, riddle me this: Israel was granted around 54% of the British Mandate of Palestine."

Not quite. Israel was granted less than 12% of Mandatory Palestine under UNGA Res 181. 77% of Mandate Palestine was turned into a Palestinian state in 1922. The remaining 23% was divided roughly in two - with the Jews therefore being offered 12% of Mandate Palestine, most of which consisted of the barren Negev.

The Arabs rejected the 2-state solution (the first of many times) at this point. The Jews compromised and accepted. The Arabs attempted to ethnically cleanse all of Palestine in 1948 in an unprovoked aggressive war.

That the Arabs retained over 80% of "Palestine" despite their warmongering is a forgotten relic of history.

G

denko 11/01/09 8:48AM

rosruss

Godwin’s Law the ‘reductio ad Hitlerum’ states

i) that probability that any thread refers to Hitler/Nazi’s approaches 1 the longer the thread.

ii) whoever makes the reference, loses the debate in progress and automatically quashes the debate/thread once such an invariably hyperbolic comparison is made.

iii) it is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread.

A law you again substantiate by the fifth post to this thread.

:o(

Hmmmm…

A corollary to Godwin’s Law, and as much of a thread quasher, must be hyperbolic reference to Mandela, Apartheid or the effectiveness/ appropriateness of the anti-apartheid movement.

You have introduced Mandela / The ‘freeing’ by the anti-apartheid movement of South Africa.

Now there’s an interesting comparison to the current Gaza conflict to be plonked unwelcomed onto this thread’s Petri dish!

" Worse Than War
The UCA Report on Murder in South Africa reveals that according to the official statistics, in the 44 years from 1950 to 1993, there was an average of 7036 murders per year. This covered the turbulent strife of the apartheid years of warfare, conflict, terrorism, riots and repression.

However, in the first eight years (of peace) of the new democratic dispensation, under the ANC, an average of 24 206 murders were committed each year - officially!. However, if the Interpol statistics are accepted, then the murder rate in South Africa during the ANC years has averaged 47 882 per year."

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2003-3-MURDER_IN.htm

The South African counterpoint reveals how puny the aggression is in this Palestine / Israel reprisal when compared to a real(¿) conflict! [Real men (Zulu’s) do not argue - the haggle of the henhouse - that’s for the womenfolk - real men fight! …and only real, real men - fight to kill! ]

Thankfully, the South African figure has stabilized over the full sixteen years at about the 47 000 p.a. high since Mandela and the anti-apartheid movement worked their magic.

South Africa is now blessed with an additional 40 0000 murders, or so, per annum as an expression of its now, not so very new, new found freedom.

That is 100 plus murders every single day, for every single day, of a full long dry sixteen year - freed South African!

(Fewer people where killed (by a quarter) in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in the A-bomb strikes - than Mandela’s gift of freedom.

Fewer people were killed (by a half) in Bosnia / Serbia - than Mandela’s gift of freedom.)

Sadly Mandela’s Freedom perversely vindicates supremacist H.F. Verwoerd (the architect of Apartheid) "…The bantu are not capable of governing themselves."

The current cotton-wool conflict in Gaza in contrast has a mortality of about half South-Africa’s daily fare - sustained for a mere, as of today, sixteen days…

"What’s wrong with the Israelis¿"

—————————————————————————————————

The point here, and apology to Anthony who I believe adds a valid perspective to the mindset of some real and perhaps valid Jewish misgiving, is how Godwin’s Law functions.

This thread is, by my response to rosross’ Nazi invocation, totally diminished and technically quashed.

Yet if the 640 000 odd dead-Mandela’s-free, and the 800 or so Palestinians , achieve anything, then let it not only be a clearer understanding of this rhetorical fallacy - in the face of succinct debate!

"…that they shall not die in vain."

Cheers

gabes 11/01/09 4:14PM

denko, you give these hatemongers far too much credit.

If someone spewed the same bile they heap on Israel on Arabs or Palestinians, can you imagine the outrage?

They’re a bunch of hatemongering hypocritical holocaustonista jihadophiles. And they think they’re "progressive". Ha!

rosross 11/01/09 6:57PM

Philanetta,
I think the UN mandate was far less than 54percent. But in truth it is irrelevant, it was legally and morally wrong for the UN to partition Palestine against the wishes of the majority of the people living there. Therein lies the problem. Palestine was colonised by force, just as Australia was and the colonists continued to expand under the occupation and do so even as we speak.
Israel must admit to the wrongs inherent in its foundation and make redress to the Palestinians just as Australia has had to do with its indigenous people.

rosross 11/01/09 6:59PM

denko,
Godwin’s Law is dumb. There are valid reasons why the Nazi comparison comes up.
since it is Jews who have established the Nazis as the template of evil it is hardly surprising they should be compared with it. If the shoe fits … and it does. It is the hypocrisy of Jews and Israelis which makes people apply the Nazi template even more. You can’t wave your flag of suffering and do the same thing to others without being called to account.
The only thing which is ‘poor form’ is Israel’s behaviour.
The Nazis were not the worst, sadly, many others have done equally evil things and continue to do so today, as we see with Israel. But, if that is the template then here we go:
1. Nazis locked civilians in concentration camps and murdered and abused them. Israelis do the same.
2. Nazis imprisoned people without charge or trial and tortured them, including children. Israel does the same.
3. Nazis demolished houses with people inside. Israelis do the same.
4. Nazis attacked refugee camps (Warsaw Ghetto) Israel does the same (Gaza).
5 Nazis shot children. Israel does the same.
6. Nazis murdered entire families to kill one person. Israel does the same.
7. Nazis discriminated against certain groups like Jews and Gypsies. Israelis do the same against Palestinians.
8. Nazis considered Jews and Gypsies to be inferior human beings. Israelis consider Palestinians and Arabs to be inferior human beings.
9. Nazis occupied and colonised using the full brutal force of a massive militaryl. Israel does the same.
10. Nazis sought to actively kill Jews, Gypsies and the mentally ill. Genocide. Israel does the same to the Palestinians. Genocide.
11. Nazis committed countless war crimes and used propaganda to lie to their own people. Israel does the same.
12. Nazis attacked their neighbours without provocation. Israel does the same.
13. Nazis believed they were superior to those they killed. Israelis and Jews believe the same. The death of one Jew is a tragedy, of 100 Arabs, collateral damage.
14. Nazis used collective punishment. Israel does the same.
15. Nazis used psychological warfare against women and children. Israel does the same. Sonic booms over Gaza which cause women to miscarry and which have left the majority of children living there partially deaf.
16. Nazis refused medical aid and international monitors. Israel does the same.
Shall I go on? I could, sadly. But you can see, quite clearly that there are countless reasons why Israeli and Nazi have become synonomous. There’s the tragedy for everyone. If the Jews learned nothing from their experiences and simply turned into what their persecutors were then there’s not much hope for anyone is there?

rosross 11/01/09 7:04PM

denko,
You seem to be using the South African situation to say:"See, by comparison there’s not so many dead Palestinians.,"
Since when was this accepted as an argument in a court of law?
One death is as much a tragedy as a thousand and so far, thousands of Palestinians have been killed by Israel and millions made refugees.
The point of all of this is principles. As a matter of principle occupation is wrong in this day and age, colonising is wrong in this day and age, killing people you occupy because they resist you is wrong, killing people or dispossessing them because you want their house and land is wrong, killing children is particularly wrong, killing innocent women and the elderly is particularly wrong, preventing people from having access to medical care is wrong, preventing them from access to school is wrong, preventing them from accessing work is wrong, preventing them from accessing farmland is wrong, preventing them from moving freely is wrong …. and Israel does all of these things.
I have lived in South Africa and I know all about the crime rate, but, the crime rate arises from dysfunction in the society not because the people are oppressed or occupied or colonised or imprisoned.
Palestinians are killed by Israel for the simple reason that they continue to resist being occupied and colonised.
We cheered the French when they did that. We supported the East Timorese when they did that. WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS?
Nothing of course once you get beyond the Israeli and Jewish propaganda which people are increasingly doing.
FREE PALESTINE. END THE OCCUPATION.

rosross 11/01/09 7:06PM

Gabes
The only thing which I and others here hate is injustice, cruelty, tyranny, murder, torture and war. All of which is Israel’s work.

gabes 11/01/09 8:20PM

rosross: "Shall I go on? I could, sadly. But you can see, quite clearly that there are countless reasons why Israeli and Nazi have become synonomous."

This is idiotic.

gabes 11/01/09 8:22PM

Solidarity with Israel

Statement by the Executive Council of Australian Jewry and the Zionist Federation of Australia

THE Jewish community of Australia declares its solidarity with the People and Government of Israel in the present conflict with Hamas.

The persistent, intentional targeting of Israeli citizens by rockets fired from the Hamas-controlled Gaza strip is a war crime and an act of violence and terror no other country would tolerate for its own citizens.

Almost one million Israelis currently live within range of these rockets (which are financed by Iran, smuggled in from Egypt, and have warheads loaded with shrapnel to cause maximum injury to human beings).

And this in the context of Hamas’ openly-declared ultimate objective to destroy Israel and kill or drive out its Jewish population.

Like any other country facing such an onslaught, Israel has full right under the UN Charter to use force to defend and protect its citizens against this continuing aggression, as has been recognised by the leaders of all responsible nations.

Israel’s response is also proportional to the threat to its citizens. In international law, proportionality is not measured by comparing the number of casualties on each side or the extent of the force used by each side.

Israel is entitled to use such force as is necessary to repel the source of the aggression against its people and territory and to prevent the aggression from recurring.

Hamas must accept that their rocket attacks on Israel must end. It is refreshing to note the condemnation of Hamas by leaders in the Arab world and elsewhere.

The thousands of rockets that have been fired by Hamas would have caused even more deaths and injuries were it not for the fact that Israel, unlike Hamas, values the lives of its citizens and protects them by emergency warning systems and shelters.

Hamas, on the other hand, uses civilians in Gaza as human shields and locates weapons and military infrastructure in their midst, deliberately using private homes, mosques, business premises, universities and other buildings and facilities, even hospitals, as cover.

Hamas continues its illegal smuggling of weapons, munitions and fighters into Gaza through tunnels, in the cynical knowledge that Israel’s counter-measures will necessarily involve the imposition of restrictions into and out of Gaza, which Hamas uses to stoke the conflict.

Although Israel, unlike Hamas, selects only military targets, and gives warnings to civilians in conflict areas, it is inevitable given Hamas’s use of its own population as human shields that Israel’s attacks on military targets will cause civilian deaths and injuries.

The proportion of civilian as opposed to other casualties acknowledged by Hamas and the UN is less than one-third.

This demonstrates that civilians are not being deliberately targeted by Israel.

If Israel were attacking indiscriminately, as Hamas does, thousands of civilians would have been killed or injured.

Every civilian casualty is nonetheless a true tragedy. We feel as much sadness at the loss of an innocent Palestinian father, mother or child as we do for the loss of Israeli lives.

We also empathise with the legitimate desire of Palestinians for self-determination and we support, as do most Israelis, the establishment of an independent, viable and democratic Palestinian state, alongside a secure Israel with defensible borders.

We pray that the Palestinians will support leaders who are committed to achieving that outcome and for the day when Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side in dignity and peace.

Source: http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=6862

philannetta 11/01/09 8:50PM

rosross and gabes, it was 54% or 56%, depending on your source. Gabes, I wasn’t counting Jordan - do you think having that as well would be a good idea? (You’d have an even tougher time justifying it in terms of population, of course.) Anyway, I ask because of a) the way you speak of Arab ‘warmongering’ and ignore the brutal, systematic and well-documented actions of the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi, and b) your implication (correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s generous to give people a large amount of their own land.

So Israel was born against the wishes of most of the people who lived there. And why would they make terms? I’m sure you know Ben-Gurion openly said he would never make terms with Israel if he had been an Arab leader, as ‘we have taken their country’. And it grew from 1948 to 1967 to almost 50% more than it had originally been granted - taken by force and kept, against international law.

Despite this, a peace plan exists (tenuously) for Israel to keep much of that land. So I ask again, how much is enough? Why will Israel’s leaders not define its final borders? Will you, gabes? Should anyone recognise them if they refuse to do this? And will you enlighten us as to what the Palestinians should do when every day more of their land is taken by settlers, more of their people are killed in indiscriminate attacks and more humiliation is forced on them?

Also, as I write, I’ve just read what we all suspected - Israel never intended to extend the ceasefire and they categorically broke it. The head of the Shin Bet said they knew Hamas wanted to maintain the truce. The IDF’s data shows how effective Hamas was at preventing attacks. But alas, the plan had already been made and the world’s most moral army opened up on them again. See www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

philannetta.blogspot.com

rosross 11/01/09 9:35PM

Gabes,
You just don’t get it do you. No-one cares what Australian jewry thinks when it supports this genocidal slaughter and Zionist has become a dirty word throughout the world. Zionist really does equate with Nazi and I’ve read a lot of their material from the very beginning.
Well done Philannetta but Gabes simply is incapable of understanding. He or She does not want to know. It is as simple as that. As Israel splatters the blood and flesh of more children around the walls of Gaza the world sees clearly what Israel has become. There’s the problem. Gabes and those like him or her are psychologically dysfunctional and no longer capable of seeing the truth.
I’ve just seen on the news. Israel is dropping leaflets telling Palestinians to flee. How sick. Gaza is a prison. An Israeli prison. They have nowhere to go. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. The Gazans are in a concentration camp and Israel in some sick joke drops leaflets telling them they are in danger. then it seems, it is okay to drop bombs and blow them to smithereens. They are truly insane. And, for those who don’t see the Nazi connection the Nazis did the same thing and they did it in the Warsaw Ghetto.

gabes 11/01/09 9:52PM

rosross: "And, for those who don’t see the Nazi connection the Nazis did the same thing and they did it in the Warsaw Ghetto."

Um, no, not the same at all.

philannetta: "rosross and gabes, it was 54% or 56%, depending on your source. Gabes, I wasn’t counting Jordan"

Did you or did you not say "British Mandate of Palestine"?

"a) the way you speak of Arab ‘warmongering’ and ignore the brutal, systematic and well-documented actions of the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi,"

How can you possibly group Haganah and Irgun with Lechi? The Haganah and Irgun both targeted British and Arab military targets ONLY. These included strategic roads, bridges, combatants, and military headquarters.

" and b) your implication (correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s generous to give people a large amount of their own land."

The phrase "their own land" is loaded.

"And it grew from 1948 to 1967 to almost 50% more than it had originally been granted - taken by force and kept, against international law."

No, not against international law. Totally in keeping with international law. You conveniently forget that Israel’s "conquests" were made after Arab invasions - 1948 and 1967. But not for the Arab invasions, Israel would look rather slimmer today.

"Despite this, a peace plan exists (tenuously) for Israel to keep much of that land. So I ask again, how much is enough? Why will Israel’s leaders not define its final borders? Will you, gabes? Should anyone recognise them if they refuse to do this? And will you enlighten us as to what the Palestinians should do when every day more of their land is taken by settlers, more of their people are killed in indiscriminate attacks and more humiliation is forced on them?"

I am not entirely certain what you are talking about. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005. Hamas took power in 2007 and, after that, Egypt and Israel blockaded the borders to prevent weapons smuggling by Hamas. There have therefore been borders with Gaza for over three years.

As for settlers, there are none in Gaza. Gaza is judenrein. There is not a single Jew there. What possible humiliation could have been perpetrated by Israel on Gaza when not a single Jew was in Gaza for over 3 years?

This reminds me of Poland, which has been virtually judenrein since its Jewish population was genocided during the pleasantries of WWII. There are presently no Jews there, either, but ask many Poles what ails their country today, and you’ll hear the inevitable answer: "The Jews." Poland is today one of the most antisemitic countries on earth.

"ting attacks. But alas, the plan had already been made and the world’s most moral army opened up on them again. See www.ipsnews.net/blahblahblah"

Ah yes, one should always turn to "ipsnews.net" for reliable reportage!

gabes 11/01/09 9:56PM

I must add the following comment.

You people can confect all the fiction you like about the current Gaza op. You can think what you like about the Jewish state. You can support Hamas all you like and you can support every people’s right to self-determination … except the Jews.

Nevertheless, whatever you say and think, the vast majority of people have quite a different view to you. We know what would happen to Israel if Hamas had its way. We have seen what happens throughout history when the Jew does not defend himself from groups that seek his death.

So say and think what you like. I am happy to argue with you your silly Nazi comparisons and apartheid nonsense.

But know this: Israel will live.

philannetta 11/01/09 10:44PM

Actually, gabes, that IPS article was the one that quoted the Shin Bet chief, so impugn at your peril.

And unfortunately for you, Israel will not live in its current form - it cannot preserve itself through military means alone, and I repeat that it may eventually have a one-state solution imposed on it. Even Ephraim Halevy says Hamas is credible and needs to be negotiated with (he added that Israel is not doing this for its own political reasons, not because of rockets), so say what you will, our perspective is not ‘anti-Israel’ - speaking for myself, it’s anti-the segment of the Israeli population that wants to continue a brutal occupation.

And yes, while not everyone in the Haganah approached the mentality of the Irgun and Stern fellows, the Haganah certainly did commit atrocities - eyewitness accounts were backed up in 1998, 50 years after the war, when the statute of limitations expired and files were released.

On who owns what land, whoever fires the first shots in a war, territory taken by force should not be kept. You can’t accept resolution 181 and decide not to accept 242 - and don’t go there with the ridiculous semantic argument. In any case, the point is moot: Israel is free to keep that land, which is what is leading many in the world to ask how much more they want - and you still won’t answer.

As for withdrawal from Gaza, are you saying it’s now under Palestinian control? Including the continuing blockade, which is an act of war? Including the ‘accidental’ shelling that kills families trying to scrape out an existence? Would you say the same if Israel’s land, sea and air borders were controlled by another state? Could I sit here and tell you ‘there’s no actual occupation, so it doesn’t count’?

And you well know that Hamas didn’t ‘take’ power - a creation that was helped by Israel with its colonial divide-and-rule strategy, it eventually grew into a genuine alternative to the corrupt and collaborationist Fatah. And because of that, it was elected, and defeated a counter-coup. That’s blowback, and that’s what happens when you engage in that kind of strategy.

Finally, there is no way Hamas or any Arab state is an existential threat to Israel - it’s difficult to identify whether this is genuine paranoia or cynical propaganda, but it’s false either way. Will you just continue to refuse to negotiate in case the Arab League doesn’t really want to normalise relations and recognise Israel?

There is only one solution: Israel needs to engage in good-faith negotiations towards a Palestinian state, or its residents will continue to live in fear. You can’t have it all.

philannetta.blogspot.com

gabes 12/01/09 12:44AM

"And unfortunately for you, Israel will not live in its current form - it cannot preserve itself through military means alone,"

I told you: Israel will live. As a Jewish state.

"And yes, while not everyone in the Haganah approached the mentality of the Irgun and Stern fellows, the Haganah certainly did commit atrocities - eyewitness accounts were backed up in 1998, 50 years after the war, when the statute of limitations expired and files were released."

Firstly, I don’t know what evidence you have for "atrocities" by Haganah or Irgun, or even really Lechi. There were none. Secondly, you make these astounding claims about 1998; I have never seen any verifiable such evidence. Why do you choose to believe this nonsense?

"On who owns what land, whoever fires the first shots in a war, territory taken by force should not be kept."

You are aware that Israel took the West Bank from Jordan and Gaza from Egypt, right? And you are aware that Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of those territories? And you are aware that the British held those territories in trust before that? And you are also aware that there was no prior reversionary title to those territories, as the Ottomans had controlled those territories prior to the British? How far back would you like to go?

I agree: whoever is the aggressor in a war should not be entitled to retain territories seized. So how much moreso should Egypt and Jordan NOT be entitled to territories they were in illegal occupation of and LOST in an aggressive war aimed at destroying Israel?

You will doubtless claim that Israel "fired the first shot" in 1967. I put it to you that if you choose to make this claim, you are a hypocrite. Why? Because you rail on about the blockade of Gaza, you call it an act of war, and at the same time making this claim would mean that you don’t regard the closure of the Straits of Tiran as the provocative act of war that it obviously was. The Egyptians were preparing to annihilate Israel; they made no secret of this.

Look forward to your answer.

"You can’t accept resolution 181 and decide not to accept 242 - and don’t go there with the ridiculous semantic argument. "

Presumably you are referring to the standard interpretation which focuses on all clauses of UNSC Res 242; not just the "return of territories" but also the right to live in "secure", "defensible" borders. If 242 meant the return of ALL territories, the reference to "secure", "defensible" borders would have been superfluous.

If using my brain makes my arguments "ridiculous semantic" ones, then I accept the charge.

"In any case, the point is moot: Israel is free to keep that land, which is what is leading many in the world to ask how much more they want - and you still won’t answer."

You haven’t asked a rational question. What land is Israel free to keep? Hamas is claiming "all of Palestine" and it wants to Islamicise all of Palestine and the rest of the world. These are Hamas’ stated goals: the destruction of Israel, genocide of the Jews, and the conversion to Islam of the entire world.

So which lands, exactly, is Israel "free to keep", in your opinion?

"And you well know that Hamas didn’t ‘take’ power"

Well yes, it did. In 2007 there was a putsch. Prior to that, Hamas had been the majority party in the Palestinian parliament. Not that the Palestinian government was democratic, or that there was a viable civil society in Gaza, but Hamas was in the parliament. And then Hamas purged Fatah from Gaza in the northern summer of 2007. How can you possibly deny this? These are the facts.

"Finally, there is no way Hamas or any Arab state is an existential threat to Israel "

The question is not whether something is an existential threat. If Jemaa Islamiya had a power base in Penrith and were lobbing rockets on Parramatta, nobody would ask whether there was an existential threat to Parramatta. You would ask what was being done to protect the residents of Parramatta from being killed walking to work or school.

Moreover, there are existential threats to Israel. They happen not to be Arab, but they are Muslim: the ayatollahs of Iran. If and when they obtain nuclear capability, we will have the first potential suicide bomber state. Judging by your prior logic, though, I suppose you probably think that Israel should only respond to a nuclear missile after it’s fired?

"There is only one solution: Israel needs to engage in good-faith negotiations towards a Palestinian state, or its residents will continue to live in fear. You can’t have it all."

Israel has engaged in good-faith negotiations for years. The question is whether the Palestinian elite can be purged of jihadis so that the Palestinian government is able to engage in serious, good-faith negotiations for peace that it can actually back with power.

Rockjaw 12/01/09 12:56AM

You know gabes, your posts are straight out of the standard Israeli propaganda handbook. Every Jew has been there Gabes, you are not bullshitting anyone. Would you like me to access the pre-produced source material for you and reprint it for everyone to see?

Go back to uni or wherever it is you were conscripted into doing this stuff and stay away from battles you don’t understand gabes. Operation Megaphone was a failure gabes, and the more people come across these strange Israeli apologists using the identical illogical arguments in unison on internet blog sites at precisely the same time planned operations are about to occur, the more obvious it is becoming to the average citizen - it is really embarrassingly obvious gabes.

gabes 12/01/09 1:23AM

I am pleased that you think my comments are professional enough to seem like part of a diplomatic campaign.

Thank you for the unintended compliment.

However, the only identical illogical arguments are those of you and your pro-jihadi apologist friends. I haven’t seen a single unique thought in either of the current live threads.

Go back to watching your hero Ben Wedeman.

Rogerio 12/01/09 3:19AM

As rockjaw says, these people are filthy animals.

Gaza’s occupation has all the hallmarks of a Nazi occupation, torture, checkpoints, curfews, denial of medical and other basic facilites. see:-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&hl=en

How long before the world finally comes to the rescue of these victims?

gabes 12/01/09 5:39AM

That makes no sense, Rogerio.

Gaza has been judenrein - "not occupied" - for over 3 years. No checkpoints, no soldiers, no settlers, no interference in local Gazan life.

So what exactly are you talking about?

rosross 12/01/09 11:14AM

gabes,
you really do say the most ridiculous things and you never respond to people’s questions. That is of course because you cannot without destroying your position. As Philanetta asked: If Israel had its air, sea, land borders controlled by another nation would you say it was ‘occupied.’? Could you argue it was free? Of course not. that’s the point.
When Israel left Gaza it merely removed illegal settlers and destroyed their homes. It then locked the gate on the electric fence around Gaza and yes, checkpoints at every possible exit and soldiers with guns. Not only that Israel continued to assassinate (murder), drop bombs, shoot people including children, refuse medical aid, food and water and you have the gall , or is it really insanity, to say there was no interference in local Gaza life.
In truth there is no way one can debate with those who are psychologically deranged as your beliefs indicate you are.I don’t mean that as an insult, I feel sorry for you. I think you and anyone who thinks like you …. which is most Israelis … is in serious need of help. If you put your beliefs and arguments to a psychiatrist you would be instantly committed. Believing things which run completely counter to all the evidence is insane.

rosross 12/01/09 12:23PM

What You Don’t Know About Gaza

By Rashid Khalidi

January 10, 2009 "NY Times" NEARLY everything you’ve been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip.

THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.

THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005. Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza’s air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will. As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

THE BLOCKADE Israel’s blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006. Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.

The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment — with the tacit support of the United States — of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”
Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia, is the author of the forthcoming “Sowing Crisis: The Cold War and American Dominance in the Middle East."

rosross 12/01/09 12:27PM

“The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Only the delusional, the insane, and I would add, the evil psychopathic would say or believe such a thing. Such a comment is completely devoid of justice, humanity and reason. More to the point, it has never, ever, ever worked. No-one has won a war of occupation in the modern age. You need the genocidal slaughter of ages past to do that.

It didn’t work for the French, the Poles, the Russians, the Dutch, the Danes, the Iraqis, the Chinese …. why on earth would it work for the Palestinians?

Madnes, madness, madness and pure evil. Gabes, I don’t know how you and the other apologists sleep at night.

rosross 12/01/09 12:29PM

The brave IDF at work:

"Limbs And Meat" In The Street

By Ewa Jasiewicz

‘A boy next to me, he went crazy, he was overwhelmed, he saw the massacre, the street was full of blood, the nails from the shells were as long as your hand’

January 10, 2009 "The Sunday Herald" — THE SHADOURA family live in the Moaskar Jabaliya area in the north of the Gaza Strip. They are originally from the town of Majdal in 1948 Palestine, now Ashkelon in present-day Israel. Their simple white, one-storey house is just yards away from the Fakhoura UN school where 42 people died, 20 of them children, when Israeli tanks opened fire on a busy intersection. Paramedics and eyewitnesses reported seeing nothing but "limbs and meat" in the street at the time. Witnesses report that four tank shells smashed into the ground releasing flying chunks of burning shrapnel.

Mohammad Shadoura, aged nine, had been playing marbles with friends in the street at the time. Mohammad’s father, Bassem Ahmad Shadoura, was close by. He describes the scene: "I saw an explosion, after which there was black smoke everywhere - the area was pure black. They hit twice in the same area. I saw a boy with his finger in the air saying I am a witness to God’ and I picked him up to take him out. Then I saw my son, he had been hit twice, in the legs and in the head. His brain was out’."

Mahmoud, 15, recalled what he saw, his eyes widening with trauma. "We saw legs everywhere, flesh, some people without heads, meat. A boy next to me, he went crazy, he was overwhelmed, he saw the massacre, the street was full of blood, the nails from the shells were as long as your hand."
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MissnOmar 12/01/09 12:41PM

Dear Gabes

"This is idiotic."

well you’d know

rosross 12/01/09 1:42PM

Well done New Matilda. Another strike in the battle for truth with Oren Yifchatel’s piece. It means so much to see someone speaking out when the general media is so shamefully silent in the main.

gabes 12/01/09 3:51PM

rosross: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

I know that’s what Rashid Khalidi claims that Boogie said. In fact, he never said any such thing:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/maoz/49921

Would you like me to spoon-feed you the source interview in Hebrew, too?

gabes 12/01/09 4:04PM

"you really do say the most ridiculous things and you never respond to people’s questions. That is of course because you cannot without destroying your position. As Philanetta asked: If Israel had its air, sea, land borders controlled by another nation would you say it was ‘occupied.’? Could you argue it was free? Of course not. that’s the point."

I answer all of your stupid questions and hypotheticals, but you choose not to listen.

If Israel was run by a bunch of jihadis whose stated intention was the destruction of its neighbouring states and the sharia takeover of the planet, I wouldn’t have too much trouble with a military blockade around its borders to stop incoming weaponry.

Now your turn to actually answer a hypothetical: if Belgium was run by rabid jihadi murderers that would brook no compromise and was committed to the destruction and takeover of neighbouring France, and rockets were raining down on Lille from Brussels, what exactly would you suggest the government of France ought to do?

rosross 12/01/09 4:13PM

Boycott Israel for peace.

The Israeli bar code is 729…. if this is at the beginning the product is from Israel.

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/08/118987.php

rosross 12/01/09 4:24PM

Gabes,
My questions are not hypothetical. There’s the difference. I deal with reality, you deal with fantasy.

Now, your hypothetical is of course not a correct analogy for the situation between Israel and Palestine.

You see, you forget the important bits. Now, let’s just say Belgium was run by a government which used violence to free the people and they would brook no compromise with the occupiers and colonisers who were oppressing them and they are shooting rockets from Brussels onto Lille, what should be done?
Well, if the people living in Belgium (Palestine) have been pushed into a concentration camp because they previously lived on a country which included all of Belgium and France (i.e. as the Palestinians did on all of Palestine) and the French (the Zionists) came in and took most of their country and gave it another name, France (read Israel) and the French occupied Belgium and brutalised and continued to colonise the people who lived there because they wanted all of the land, not some of it, and the people living in the concentration camp of Brussells (read Gaza) fired rockets at the occupiers and colonisers it would be hardly surprising would it?
You see, the problem is Gabes that you and a few of your colleagues are probably the only people in the world who don’t see Israel as the murderous regime, jewish not jihadi, who will brook no compromise with the people they occupy and colonise because they want to kill them and push them off all the land.
The most murderous regime, go and count the numbers, in this conflict is Israel.
The Arabs have said and Hamas has agreed, Israel back to pre: 67 borders and there is peace. Israel says no. Israel is the one which refused the Palestinians their rights and justice as an occupied and colonised people.
But, I think enough is enough. You are clearly not capable of seeing reality and I must leave you to your fantasy. Thank god there are less and less people in the world who have the same fantasy.

gabes 12/01/09 4:25PM

"Boycott Israel for peace."

Haha oh I’m sure this will really catch on. I can just imagine ordinary shoppers picking up an item from the supermarket, and just as they are about to place it in the trolley their partner reaches over and says, "Hold on, let me just check if the bar code starts with 27309. I mean, there is nothing more important than boycotting the Jews, we have to be very vigilant, even while buying tinned fruit."

Ludicrous.

gabes 12/01/09 4:28PM

Yawn. Still the same, old, tired pro-Hamas rhetoric.

Time to move on to another thread.

rosross 12/01/09 4:29PM

gabes,
I did follow your link by the way. I think it’s a pretty fair translation of what he said.
Then again, perhaps it has been made stronger than he meant but that’s par for the course.
Hamas is accused of wanting to destroy all Jews when they don’t they just want justice. Iran’s pm was accused of calling for the death of all Israelis when he didn’t. He said the Zionist regime would fall from the pages of history. A different thing. A lot of people would like Israel’s Zionist regime to fall from the pages of history and you know what, more and more of them are Israelis.

rosross 12/01/09 5:08PM

Gabes,
No, it’s not about boycotting Jews it is about boycotting Israelis. Different thing. You would be surprised how it is catching on. It worked with South Africa and will work with Israel. Boycotts are peaceful and powerful.

DrGideonPolya 12/01/09 5:11PM

An excellent, moral, humane and universalist article by Antony Loewenstein.

The Nazis wiped my family from the face of Europe, and not just for that reason but for reasons of fundamental HUMANITY I am bound by the fundamental post-Holocaust injunctions "zero tolerance for racism", "never again to anyone" and "bear witness" - core messages from the WW2 Jewish Holocaust (5-6 million dead, 1 in 6 dying from DEPRIVATION), the WW2 Western Theatre Holocaust (30 million Slav, Jewish and Roma dead) and the WW2 Eastern Theatre Holocaust (35 million Chinese dead under the Japanese, 6-7 million Indians deliberately starved to death by Churchill in the "forgotten", man-made Bengal Famine.

Yet these core post-Holocaust injunctions "zero tolerance for racism", "never again to anyone" and "bear witness"are grossly violated by the Zionists who in word and deed are fundamentally racist - they continue to put into practice an exclusivist, race-based, primitive agenda of invasion, occupation, disempowerment, dispossession and ethnic cleansing of an Indigenous People involving an ongoing Palestine Genocide,with GENOCIDE as defined by Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention (see: http://www.edwebproject.org/sideshow/genocide/convention.html ) as set out below.

QUOTE: " Article II. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: a) Killing members of the group; b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.". END QUOTE.

In 1878 there were about 25,000 Jews (15,000 immigrants) in Palestine out of a total population of 0.5 million; even by 1945, a year after Churchill’s Cabinet has agreed to race-based Partition, Jews represented 1/3 of the population (see: ) . Even today Jews are only slightly over 50% of a Palestine population composed of 5.5 million Jewish Israelis (with full human rights) , 1.5 million Indigenous Arab Israelis ("second class citizens" under Apartheid-style race laws) and 4 million Occupied Palestinians (a captive population, imprisoned illegally without charge or trial now for over 40 years and with EVERY human right specified by the Universal Charter of Human Rights grossly violated by their illegal, war criminal captor, Apartheid Israel).

The Israelis have been killing Palestinians violently (as in the latest APPALLING Gaza Massacre) but mostly through the even more DEADLY process of war criminal DEPRIVATION in gross violation of Articles 55 and 56 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War that unequivocally DEMAND that the Occupier preserves the health and life of the Conquered "to the fullest extent of the means available to it" (see: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm ).

From UN Population Division, UNICEF and WHO data it can be estimated that in the Occupied Palestinian Territory post-invasion avoidable deaths total 0.3 million; post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million; 85% of Christian Palestinians have fled; 2,400 Occupied Palestinian under-5 year old infants die avoidably from deprivation each year; 4,300 Occupied Palestinians die avoidably from deprivation each year; there are 7 million Palestinian refugees, the biggest single group of refugees in the World - GENOCIDE as defined by the UN Genocide Convention.

The ostensible but FALSE Israeli "terror hysteria", LYING excuse for this latest Israeli Gaza atrocity is "Gaza missile deaths" that (while utterly deplorable) in REALITY total 28 in the 8.25 years since the Second Intifida of the Occupied Indigenous Palestinians began in September 2000, this corresponding to an "annual homicide rate" in "deaths per million of population per year" of 0.5 (Israelis killed by Gaza missiles) - as compared to 0.5 (husbands killed by raped wives), 1.0 (husbands killed by battered wives), 15 (Israelis by Israelis), 56 (Americans), 100 (Americans by guns), 164 (Palestinians killed violently by Israelis), 200 (African-Americans), 473 (citizens of Detroit, Michigan, USA), 902 (annual Palestinian non-violent deaths through war criminal, Geneva Convention-violating Israeli-imposed deprivation). and 1,066 deaths per million per year (Occupied Palestinian violent and non-violent deaths from violent and abusive Israeli Occupation) (see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/27795/42/ ).

The 1967-2009 DEATH RATIO of "Palestinian violent and non-violent excess deaths from Israelis"/"Israelis killed by Palestinians" = 310,636/2,169 = 143, 14 TIMES GREATER than the Hitler-ordered "reprisals death ratio” of 10 in response the killing of 33 Germans in Rome - the war criminal order was carried out on 24 March 1944 with the Nazi German execution of 335 Italian men and boys in the Ardeatine Caves Massacre (335/33 = 10).

The continuing US veto on UN Security Council action means it is up to the Rest of the World - including decent, anti-racist , humanitarian Jews - to put a STOP to the Gaza Massacre and to Apartheid Israel by (a) progressive shut-down of oil production by Arab, Muslim and other countries; (b) intra-national and international Sanctions and Boycotts against Apartheid Israel and its US, UK, EU and White Australia backers (a mechanism that was ultimately successful in removing the US-, UK-. White Australia- and Apartheid Israel-backed Apartheid regime in South Africa); (c) direct action against Apartheid Israel by the UN General Assembly through UN Resolution 377 that bypasses the UN Security Council ; and (d) zero tolerance for LYING, and particularly lying by the racist Zionist (RZ)-backed, climate criminal Bush-ites that threaten not just Arabs in the Middle East but every non-European person on Earth with Climate Genocide.

Peace is the only way but Silence kills and Silence is complicity.

rosross 12/01/09 5:39PM

Gideon, good post.
One of the difficulties with this issue is that passion pushes people onto one side or the other and when paranoia is opposed to justice there is no common ground.
Sadly, Israelis have been ill served by their friends. They have been allowed to become what they are and it has debased their culture, society and religion. A friend is someone who will tell us the truth and help us to become the best we can be, not someone who goes along with our lies and allows us to become the worst we can be.
But, as with all things there are complex reasons why it has happened this way. In truth, Jews have been ill served by their religion, most people are ill served by their religions but Judaism in particular is a psychologically destructive belief system because it is sourced in an all powerful vengeful God and a belief in persecution and victimhood. Judaism has ‘wired the brains’ of Jews (having a Jewish branch in my own family I know this all too well)for martyrdom, denial and an implicit belief in one’s own victimhood and innocence. The other side of the coin of victimhood is of course the tyrant and this is what we see at work in Israel.
As a psychological study it is a classic case of a society’s need to create persecutors even when none exist. And it creates a mindset which is incapable of believing or trusting in others because that would require relinquishing one’s sense of Self: the one who is different (read superior), special (read other), victimised (read innocent), persecuted (read martyr) and entering that limbo land of nothingness where one has to find who one truly is. This applies as much to societies and nations as it does to individuals.
Israel’s supporters have been able to indulge in the absolute depths of paranoia, victimhood and perceived persecution because they are safe and they are not reminded of the reality of their actions as Israelis are. Well, Israelis who are still able to see with some level of reason and objectivity can see the reality.
At the end of the day the problem here is the power which Israelis have and which they are using against the Palestinians in a paranoid desire to prove to themselves their own rightness and victimhood. No-one can stop them but those with the power to force them to see reason and to act reasonably.
If Governments won’t do it the people must.

lev_lafayette 12/01/09 6:12PM

Congratulations are again due to Antony Loewenstein for his clarity, honesty and integrity.

Gabes, I sincerely hope that one day you’ll transcend your loyalties to a particular state which are currently greater that your loyalty to humans in general.

gabes 12/01/09 7:21PM

"Hamas is accused of wanting to destroy all Jews when they don’t they just want justice."

Oh, I’m sure you’re right, except for Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

gabes 12/01/09 7:22PM

"You would be surprised how it is catching on."

Pfft. Have fun with your boycott, dude.

gabes 12/01/09 7:25PM

lev: "Congratulations are again due to Antony Loewenstein for his clarity, honesty and integrity. Gabes, I sincerely hope that one day you’ll transcend your loyalties to a particular state which are currently greater that your loyalty to humans in general."

Indeed? For my part, I sincerely hope you can transcend trendy knee-jerk Israel-hatred and actually examine the situation without Edward Said-coloured spectacles.

rosross 12/01/09 7:35PM

Gabes, It’s pointless posting hyperbole. Hamas wants to destroy all the Jews you say, well, sorry, that is not its charter. They never said it. They would like all of their country back but they have also said they would recognise Israel behind pre:67 borders. However, you cannot or will not comprehend that.
There are extremes on all sides my friend. There are Israelis who write Death to the Arabs, Arabs are vermin exterminate them on the walls of Palestinian homes; there are Israeli ministers who call for the expulsion of all Palestinians; there are nutters on both sides.
But, and here is the core reality, the dangerous nutters are the Israeli ones and that is because a. they have nuclear weapons, b. they are armed to the teeth with massive military power and c. they are the occupiers and colonisers.
The Palestinians on the other hand have no power beyond a few primitive rockets and some basic weapons. They could not in a million years destroy Israel or drive Israelis into the sea.
On the other hand the Israelis could most certainly kill all of the Palestinians and drive them into the sea.
Logic suggests that the nutters on the Israeli side are the ones to watch.

rosross 12/01/09 7:51PM

From the brave Uri Avnery, a sane Israeli of Conscience and his article,
ISRAEL IS LOSING THIS WAR
NEARLY SEVENTY YEARS ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as “hostages” and exploit the women and children as “human shields”, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

rosross 12/01/09 7:56PM

If there is any hope for Israel it is because of brave people like Uri Avnery.

THE FAILURE to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.

Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.

If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.

What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.

In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.

http://www.progressive.org/mag/avnery011109.html

DrGideonPolya 12/01/09 9:11PM

Well said rosross - I only wish that there were more decent, anti-racist, humanitarian Australians like you speaking out against the appalling, racist war crimes of Apartheid Israel in its latest Gaza Massacre and continuing Palestinian Genocide .

Of course fundamental to any decent humanity is obligatory (a) painful introspection to examine Oneself and (b) empathy for the Other and taking their problems and hurts on board (for a profound analysis of this see Professor Walter Davis’ book "Death’s Dream Kingdom. The American psyche since 9-11" (Pluto, London, 2006) (for review see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/8761/26/ ).

Professor Davis provides the cartoon converse of this exemplified by the American religious Right who (a) don;t have to question themselves (because they are saved, they have all the answers already), (b) they don’t empathize with the Other - rather they hate, exclude, imprison kill the Other.who by their very existence threaten their belief system.

The racist Zionists (RZs) exhibit a similar pathology that has been described by outstanding French Jewish writer Emmanuel Todd in his best-selling book "After the Empire" (original Apres l’Empire) as "differentialist" (i.e. racist) as opposed to the "universalist" position of the American Declaration of Independence of "all men are created equal and have an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

That humane universalist position of all decent, anti-racist, humanitarian people is grossly violated by people that is so horribly perverted by the racist Zionists (RZs) and warmongering, genocidal Bush-ites and neo-Bush-ites in their ongoing Palestinian Genocide, Iraqi Genocide and Afghan Genocide - in the Occupied Palestinian, Iraqi and Afghan Territories post-invasion excess deaths total 0.3 million, 2 million and 4-6 million, respectively, post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million, 0.6 million and 2.1 million, respectively; and refugees total 7 million, 4 -6 million and 4 million, respectively) (see "9-11 excuse for US global genocide. The real 9-11 atrocity: Millions Dead (9-11 million) in Bush Wars (1990-2009): http://mwcnews.net/content/view/25184/42/ ) .

Australians, saturated with anti-Arab anti-Semitic pro-Zionist lies from the Mainstream media should pause and consider what if the racist Zionists (RZs) were doing it to US i.e. to AUSTRALIANS?

Well, in 2006 Apartheid Israel WAS shelling and bombing relatives of AUSTRALIANS and indeed 25,000 AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS in Lebanon (naval and tank shelling, high explosive bombs , phosphorus and cluster bombs) - with the approval of the Liberal-National Government and labor Opposition.

In 2008-2009 Gaza Massacre there are again relatives of AUSTRALIANS and indeed AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS subject to naval and tank shelling, high explosive bombs and phosphorus bombs- with the tacit approval of the pro-Zionist Lib-Labs.

Further (though most Australians wouldn’t know this in the Land of Flies, Lies and Slies [spin-based untruths]), thanks to wise counsel – most likely including advice from ASIO before it became a substantial captive of Lib-Lab-promoted US-Israeli state terrorism – AUSTRALIANS just missed out on becoming PALESTINIANS when the Australian Government finally rejected 1930s-1940s plans for a race-based “Jewish Homeland” in the Kimberley region of North West Australia (read the book by Jewish Australian writer Leon Gettler “An Unpromised land. Australia’s northwest – a new Homeland?” (Freemantle Arts Centre Press, 1993).

Racist Zionist (RZ) LYING (e.g. the “28 Gaza missiles deaths in 8 years” excuse for the current carnage) is a major THREAT to rational risk management in this country which faces crucial issues of national security, including man-made climate change, that are falsely obfuscated by Zionist-backed war criminal and climate criminal Lib-Labs.

The primitive, bigoted, warmongering, genocidal, racist Zionists (RZs) represent a major threat to Australia and Australians values - and indeed are THE biggest threat today to Jews and to Jewish values.

Rather than dominating Australian politics and the craven, Bush-ire Lib-Labs, the racist Zionists (RZs) should be side-lined by an indignant Australia as utterly antithetical to Australia’s legitimate interests and Australia’s asserted "universalist" "fair go" tradition.

And certainly, the thousands of racist Zionist (RZ) Australians or "double citizenship" Israeli Australians who physically, financially or verbally support Apartheid Israeli terrorist violence against AUSTRALIANS (or indeed anyone) should be subject to voter and business sanctions and criminal prosecution.

Peace is the only way but Silence kills and Silence is complicity.

gabes2 12/01/09 10:20PM

RZ? Well, GP, you are a real FD!

gabes2 12/01/09 10:25PM

"Hamas wants to destroy all the Jews you say, well, sorry, that is not its charter. They never said it."

Well I can’t argue with a person who lies to himself in spite of having the Hamas covenant in black and white.

For reasonable people, this is hosted by Yale. See specifically Article 7. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Rogerio 12/01/09 10:26PM

Poor gabes, still taking up the cause of the squatters is he?

Well, with people like gabes who needs Hamas to give the Israelis a bad name?

Let’s hope those squatters work things out with the owners of the property or they might find themselves squatting in Nurembourg soon.

Who would want to buy any crap from those racist bastards anyway? Our local supermarket already has a list of Israeli goods on the notice board and I see a queue of people writing the list down over the past few days.

It is really not kosher to buy Israeli these days, better switch over the Hal-al!

ShockDoc 12/01/09 10:41PM

Not only that rogerio, but buying Israeli goods feels too much like buying stolen property. It leaves a person feeling sleazy just looking at their junk on the shelves these days.

revilo 12/01/09 11:00PM

The one thing those of you who are mired in self-loathing and antisemitism overlook, conveniently, is the total and absolute failure of the UN (united nobodies, or useless nudniks, take your pick)
They have about as much chance as a kiwi lifesaver or ozzie lifeguard for that matter of assessing a dangerous situation let alone actually doing something about it.

I don’t know what has happened to bring about this "through the looking glass world" we find ourselves, but, one thing for sure.
Noone seems to really give a rat’s a… about anyone.

Look at our papers last sunday, a martian reading them would think that we are a s… scared of our own creations, whether it be ipper’s hats or mouthwash.
Also, the community is more preoccupied with getting bitten by sharks and having more handouts from the govt. so we can pursue more and more wasteful and futile pastimes.

The Gazan’s median age is 17 years, the population is 50% younger and 50% is older.
The Hamas guys surround themselves with their "wives" and children, and fire at Israeli soldiers, many of whom are killed and wounded.
Israel knows if they nuked the place , like in "aliens" there would be just as many to replace them, they have been breeding like rats for a long time.

So ladies and gents before the blatant judenheid is unleashed further just remember, who would put up with a plague of vermin in their neighbourhood.
If your neighbour decides to call in the pest eradicators, then let them get on with it, before that pest overcomes the rest.
Just remember one flick and they’re gone…well a few more flicks may be needed yet.
Salam,
Allah akhba.
Tzvikale

revilo 12/01/09 11:12PM

And another thing:
This may upset some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSfeNkJgBI

Rockjaw 13/01/09 12:01AM

Revilo? Do you know that you sound exactly like a holocaust denier?

gabes2 13/01/09 1:39AM

Shame! —Featured in the Jerusalem Post
by David A. Harris
Executive Director
American Jewish Committee
January 11, 2009

(Some background info on the American Jewish Committee —- a PROGRESSIVE, LIBERAL group seeking a two-state solution, a stable economy and livelihood for BOTH Israelis AND PALESTINIANS)

There’s an interesting juxtaposition this month.

As Israel pursues its military operation against Hamas, preparations are under way around the world for Holocaust Remembrance Day on January 27.

The two are not disconnected.

Israel’s policy should be scrutinized like any other state’s, and the loss of any innocent life should be mourned. But some of Israel’s fiercest critics go far beyond the limits of what might be termed rational debate. They have obscenely tried to turn the Holocaust on its head, portraying Israel as committing Nazi-like crimes—the ultimate libel against the Jewish state.

A Catholic cardinal—and leading Vatican official—refers to Gaza as a “concentration camp.”

A Greek newspaper entices readers with the banner headline “Holocaust,” referring to Israel’s alleged actions in Gaza.

A Brazilian newspaper publishes two cartoons—one of Hitler wearing an armband emblazoned with the Star of David and swastika, saluting, “Heil Israel!”; the other of a Star of David casting a shadow in the form of a swastika over the Gaza Strip.

On his website, white supremacist David Duke reacts to the Gaza crisis by lamenting that Hollywood portrays Jews as Holocaust victims rather than perpetrators.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez calls on Venezuela’s Jewish community to denounce the “Holocaust” being committed in Gaza.

Posters equating the Star of David with the Nazi swastika are ubiquitous at anti-Israel rallies around the world.

A demonstrator in Holland confidently asserts that “Anne Frank would be turning over in her grave” if she saw what was happening in Gaza.

Shame!

Israel seeks to defend itself in a highly complex environment, where the adversary, Hamas, cravenly uses civilians as shields and mosques as armories. For that right to protect its citizens, which any sovereign nation would exercise under similar circumstances, it is labeled as the successor to the demonic force that wiped out two-thirds of European Jewry, including 1.5 million children.

How many times does it need to be said?

Israel left Gaza in 2005. Israel has repeatedly renounced any territorial ambitions there. Israel gave Gazans the first chance in their history to govern themselves.

Israel has a vested interest in a peaceful, prosperous, and developing Gaza. This point cannot be stressed enough. After all, the two are destined to share a common border.

Israel has only one overarching concern in Gaza: Does it pose a security threat to neighboring Israel? The answer, tragically, is clear. That was the result of a decision taken in Gaza, not Israel. Hamas was chosen to rule, and choices have consequences. After all, Hamas denies Israel’s right to exist.

Why were tunnels built across the Egyptian border? What are the Iranian-made Grad missiles going through those tunnels to Gaza meant for? And why are Hamas fighters going through those tunnels in the other direction for training in Iran and Lebanon?

More than 10,000 rockets, missiles, and mortars have been fired at southern Israel from Gaza in the past eight years. Towns and villages have lived under constant threat. If some of those projectiles were crude and missed their targets, it was not for lack of trying. Their aim is to kill, maim, and intimidate as many civilians as possible. Everything is fair game—homes, hospitals, schools, playgrounds. The trauma this has created cannot be adequately described.

And for what? To “liberate” Gaza? Well, Gaza is already under Hamas, not Israeli, rule. No, more likely, to eventually “liberate” Israel from Israeli rule.

But wait.

What about all the clergy, cartoonists, protesters, and politicians so concerned about the human rights of those in Gaza? Have they ever uttered a peep while those 10,000 rockets, missiles, and mortars were raining down on southern Israel? Did they ever take to the streets to support the human rights of Israelis? Did they ever read the Hamas Charter and hear the echoes of Mein Kampf and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, two European books that helped to condemn Jews to their death?

Did they ever put two and two together and ask what would happen if Hamas married its annihilationist goals with ever more advanced weaponry? And did it occur to them that, yes, nearly six million Israeli Jews would be in the crosshairs?

To ask these questions is to answer them, which probably means one of two things.

Either the accusers are totally clueless about the Holocaust and, therefore, incapable of understanding why their words and actions are so outrageous.

Or they are deliberately manipulating history, distorting the truth, and twisting facts for a larger political purpose.

What could that purpose be?

Well, for starters, extreme right, extreme left, and radical Islamic groups have found something to agree on—the Holocaust complicates their goals.

For the extreme right, by seeking to deny or minimize the Holocaust, the crime of their predecessors, they have tried to burnish their credentials as a “responsible” element in more mainstream society.

For the extreme left, the Holocaust is seen as a basis for the subsequent creation of the State of Israel, a nation whose right to exist they single-mindedly deny.

And for radical Islamic groups, the Holocaust is regarded as a perennial source of sympathy for Israel, undermining efforts to chip away at its legitimacy.

These three movements can’t agree on much, but they seem to have a convergent interest in hijacking the Holocaust and using it against Israel.

And there are others, especially in Europe, who don’t fit into any of these three categories but may have their own Holocaust-related agenda.

Perhaps it’s an effort to get out from under the moral weight of the genocide. After all, it was the sins of commission by the perpetrators, abetted by the sins of omission on the part of bystanders, that amounted to the Final Solution. How could Europe – especially the Europe that today sees itself as a source of such enlightenment and reason – have been the stage for such a monstrous crime against humanity just a few short decades ago?

And, of course, the Europe in which the Holocaust unfolded was a continent already haunted by the crowded presence of Jewish ghosts—victims of centuries of expulsions, pogroms, ghettos, pales of settlement, inquisitions, forced conversions, discriminatory laws, professional restrictions, conspiracy theories, blood libels, and the teaching of contempt.

Pinning a swastika on Israel, and, by extension, its supporters, can be unburdening. It allows for a catharsis of the spirit. Given a measure of power, the argument goes, the Jews behave no differently than the Nazis. According to this inverted, not to mention perverted, logic, the only lesson of the Holocaust is to stand up for targeted “victims.” And who is that targeted victim today? The Palestinians of Gaza, of course.

The Holocaust taught several lessons. This January 27th would be a good time to remind the world of what they are.

First, sometimes people mean what they say. Hitler spelled out his ambitions well in advance. Too few took him seriously. Until late in the day, there were those leaders in Europe who believed that he could be reasoned with, that his words were simply hyperbolic, that negotiations were possible, and that compromises could be reached. Is it possible that Hamas and its patron, Iran, actually mean what they say when they speak of a world without Israel?

Second, there is such a thing as a just war. War should be the last option, but there are times when it must remain an option. Had the Allied nations not declared war on the Third Reich, how would the world have looked? Mind you, that war was neither “clean” nor “surgical,” and Allied leaders were hardly preoccupied with debates over “proportionality.”

As diplomacy offered no solution and restraint met with no reciprocity, what was Israel supposed to do in the face of Hamas’s arms buildup and daily barrage of fire? Simply accept the role of sitting duck so that it might aspire to the moral high ground of victimhood?

And third, defenselessness is no strategy. Jews were defenseless against the Nazi onslaught. They had no army, no recourse to weapons, and few who sought to defend them. Jews learned, at high cost, never to permit such vulnerability again.

So, as January 27th approaches, and we recall the six million, spare us the lip service and the crocodile tears from those who would accuse Israel of Nazi-like crimes.

Remembering dead Jews is important, yes, but protecting living Jews is no less significant.

dereklane 13/01/09 4:34AM

There were, so I am told, large numbers of the British Jewish community marching in solidarity with Palestine here in the UK last week (as well as the usual contingent of kids holding their own pro-Israel demonstrations). But it seems Israel’s hold on the diaspora weakens the more savage it gets with the indigenous inhabitants.

And for Gales, a link to another writer who says it so much better than I (regarding the selective use of the term ‘genocide’).

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php

cheers,

Derek

revilo 13/01/09 7:19AM

Deny this:
News Flash!
Hamas has declared that they are winning the war with Israel they started with the 2nd Intifada!
Just wake up to what is happening.
Israel does’nt need your support, but the embittered so called peaceniks are doing untold harm to world peace.

The trouble is the religious fundamentalists believe this is about Israel and Arab oil.
It’s about neither, it’s about Arab hegemony and western greed and corruption.
A good summary of the situation is encapsulated in the Movie: "You don’t mess with the Zohan!" with Adam Sandler, a very funny satire about a very sad situation.
Let’s hope the free people of the world wake up to what’s happening before it’s too late.
Get your prayer mats ready folks, it’s going to be a bumpy ride.

Brethren ‘Stand up and be counted!’ to quote justice Sugarman during WW2 in his exhortation to Australian Jews when they were being deported and exterminated in Europe by the Germans and their accomplices.

Oli aka tzika

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