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eet 12/03/08 2:40PM

Your article is so one-sided, and oblivious to the right of Israel to defend itself against mortal enemies that it is self-defeating. Nothing is perfect but if the authors wanted to advance their cause (some parts of which are legitimate such as the right of self-determination and the establishment of their own state) a more balanced and less lopsided approach would have assisted them. They have failed that test in my view.

The day the authors condemn the criminality of Hamas and repudiate the terms of its charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and all of its population they may be taken more seriously.

I celebrate that the Rudd Government, and the Federal Opposition, will jointly celebrate the establishment of the State of Israel. Israel was founded to serve as a haven against Anti-Semitism after Nazism and its unspeakable Holocaust. Israel was necessary then, and just as necessary today. It is also, with all its faults and contradictions, the only true democracy in the Middle East, unlike the fierce dictatorships in the region, from Syria to Saudi Arabia, from Morocco to Kuwait in respect of which, and their crimes, the authors remain so shamelessly silent.

Australia is a strong supporter of the State of Israel, and rightly so. A good example of great bipartisan support in our Parliament. I celebrate it, I feel proud of being Australian today.

HiroyaSugita 12/03/08 3:51PM

Hiro Sugita

It seems obvious to me that the peace settlement in Palestine is impossible without engaging the Hamas. Of course I’m aware that the Hamas is seen as a terrorist organisation by some. So was the IRA. So was the AFC.

What puzzles me and disturbs me is the fact that the nation established as a safe haven against centuries-long racism which culminated at the unspeakable actions at the hands of Nazism can inflict similar devastation to the Palestinian people.

Bdally 12/03/08 4:21PM

Australian values have been ‘thrown out of the window’ if I’m allowed to borrow the PM’s phrase. Celebrating the oppressor over the oppressed is not a value I subscribe to as an Australian. The genocide in Palestine perpetrated by the Israeli Government aided by a blanket support from such ‘friend’ as Australia has to stop. The occupation and the settlements preceded Hamas and the Intifada. Let alone the fact that Israel helped establish Hamas to counter the influence of the PLO in the Palestinian territories. Those who support the motion should realise that this is only a payback for the donation during the last election. No more, nor less. It is unfortunate that we live in a ‘democracy’ where a prime minister has ‘Israel in his DNA’. I wonder what else he has in his DNA.

peterbest 12/03/08 4:23PM

A question for eet: Which Israel is it that has the right to defend itself against mortal enemies? Is it the Israel that ethnically cleansed its newly-acquired territory in 1948? The Israel that burst out of its boundaries and stole more and more Palestinian land despite the censure of the UN? The Israel that is the only nation in the world based on blatantly racist principles and treats its Arabs as second-class citizens? The Israel that engages in collective punishment, that sees Arab lives as worth so little that one Israeli death brings vengeance against dozens, even hundreds of Palestinians, that subjects Palestinians to terror, brutality, death and destruction every day? The Israel whose children frolic in swimming pools while Palestinians have insufficient water to even quench their thirst? The Israel that refuses passage to ambulances so that patients die? The Israel that thumbs its nose at the UN and at civilised world opinion? The Israel that has nuclear weapons yet is outraged at the prospect of anyone else having them? The Israel that chokes the life out of the Palestinian economy and stands by while people starve and live in fear? Which of these Israels is the one that HAMAS should accept? Which one is the Israel that has a right to defend itself against those it has murdered, dispossessed and brutalised? The Israel founded on shining hopes and high principles has gone, replaced by a racist, paranoid, arrogant state that sees no value in any lives that aren’t Jewish. How tragic.

David Grayling 12/03/08 5:12PM

Peter, as a long-time supporter of the downtrodden Palestinians, I found your comment to be right on! Australia should be offering blanket condemnation of Israel not unqualified support.

But, in this country, as in America and Britain, the pro-Israel lobby is very active and its members occupy influential places in politics and the media. That’s why few people know what is really happening in Gaza and the West Bank: the atrocities, the genocide, the stealing of land, the grinding humiliation of the Palestinians who not only had their land taken from them without compensation but have had to endure forty years of brutal occupation as well while they live in impoverished refugee camps.

Israel is a rogue state, one that is out of control. It ignores all International Laws and Conventions and, with American support, does whatever it wants.

It must be brought into line. It threatens world peace!

www.dangerouscreation.com

rmg1859 12/03/08 7:27PM

eet,

Israel as a democracy: after sixty years of ethnic cleansing, moving aliens to re-colonise the East, bombarding those hapless people into submission, yes it is fine to prattle about democracy. Perhaps the Nazis could have tried the same fradu, after declaring all Jews to be aliens and therefore not citizens able to vote, and later moving them ‘to the East’, and holding elections open to all Aryan citizens - how democratic, how inclusive, would that have been ? So how much more democratic is Israel ? Apartheid Isael ? An Israel to which Palestinians do not have the right of return ? An Israel which can kill 0.012 % of the entire population of Gaza in a week, the equivalent of 36,000 Americans, in one week ?

So yes, I am proud to be an Australian when I hear that members of parliament like Julia Irwin boycott the praise for fascist Israel, and like Daryl Melham who refuses to attend.

No, there cannot be a two-state solution except on the basis of
apartheid, exclusion, no rights for Palestinians to return to their own houses or to reclaim their own property (now where have we heard that before - Poland ? Belarus ?) But two fascisms do not make a democracy.

So I’m with David on this crucially important subject. How can it be resolved ? surely, eventually, only by instituting a single, secular state, perhaps under international control. But that can’t happen until the US is too powerless to provide effective support for Israeli fascism, or has a government which does not support Zionist imperialism. Joe

Toss 12/03/08 8:04PM

Look on the bright side.
With an Israel supporting labour government in Australia, and probably an Israeli adoring Democrat government in the U.S. next year, I can look forward to being called a rightwing nutjob or a fascist for criticising Israel over the next few years.
A change is as good as a holiday! Toss.

David Grayling 12/03/08 8:18PM

Of course, Howard was a great Israel supporter too, Toss. He’s got medals from various Jewish Organizations to prove it.

Why is it that the land of the ‘Fair Go’, politically, ignores it completely when it suits? It’s not as though Australia doesn’t know what Israel is doing!

singha99 12/03/08 9:20PM

Can I ask some questions about the Palestinians?

1. How many Israelis, including elected Parliamentarians, have been abducted and placed in Palestinian prisons without charge?

2. How many Israeli homes have been bulldozed or destroyed by tanks because they “might” belong to people who might be a threat to Israel?

3. How many Palestinians live in homes illegally built on territories which it is internationally agreed are part of the long term Israeli state?

4. How many Palestinian only roads and checkpoints have been built on Israeli territory?

I could go on, but the answers are fairly clear, I think.

The “peace” talks seem to assume that both sides need to make concessions. Given their treatment over many years, and given the continuing erosion and fragmentation of the territory internationally agreed to form the basis of the Palestinian state, it is difficult to see much scope for the Palestinians making concessions.

Indeed, the single action that could make the most impact in the short term would be for Israel to stop building homes in the West Bank, and to forcibly remove the small settlements built on hilltops by extremists.

And our most useful input, rather than celebrate 60 years of Israeli occupation, would be to use our influence to encourage the Israeli Government to act responsibly in this matter. Glen

eet 12/03/08 9:38PM

This little corner of New Matilda, our wonderful and prestigious publication, has become a haven for Anti-Semites. This little corner is unbalanced, and fanatical. It distills hatred for the Jewish state, a country the size of a suburb. It ignores the atrocities, and backward ways, espoused by those who they support so blindly. But, it is only a little corner of the great NM World. And every city has its black holes. So it is best to stay clear off this little one, and leave it alone for good.

So party on, Anti-Semites. Australia is watching curiously. The overwhelming majority of the Australian population supports the motion moved in Parliament today in support of the Jewish State, and proudly so. The fringe Anti-Semite element represented in this little corner of our wonderful NM notwithstanding.

nassere 12/03/08 10:33PM

It is sad that “eet” reverts to the slander of “Anti-Semitism” when legitimate questions are asked of Israeli government actions over the last 40 years with respect to the Palestinian territories.

Refusal to comply with UN resolutions regarding settlement activity/expansion, collective punishment measures designed to humiliate hundreds of thousands of people under occupation, clandestine production of vast stores of nuclear weapons and yet refusal to countenance the perogative of its neighbours to develop a nuclear weapon etc etc

To question Israel to account for its actions (given its claim to be a Western style democracy) does not justify hurling around the “Anti-Semitic” slur. By doing just that you trivialise the deeply ugly form of racism that is Anti-Semitism and just shows up the shaky foundations of your own argument.

revilo 12/03/08 10:52PM

The authors of the above fiction belong to that rather large and growing nest of antisemites, they represent the displaced left, the loony toons if you like.

Eet, I would’nt be too phased by this “cosy corner of antisemites”, I like to see how they think, (or don’t think), particularly those who claim to be Jewish, and want to apologize for Israel’s very existence.
The one’s that really amuse me actually claim to have never met antisemitism or heard of any acts in this “lucky(your with Army) country.

Well friends, You really don’t have to scratch that deep to find them.

So the almighty may not have given the chosen people (how they hate it when the bible reminds them) the numbers (or the oil) but survival skills are in abundance… quality is better than quantity any day.
That goes for the righteous gentiles too, they are in abundance, but most are running very scared too.
There’s been a lot of hijacking going on.
Jews are’nt the only one’s with a bit of wealth and power.
After all when you criticize Jews all you get is righteous indignation. When you criticize antisemites you get…well you see what you get.
So be careful.
A Jew is a Zionist, or they are not a Jew…”If my Lord I forget Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning”
This is not just superstition or mythology, this is the only compass there is.
“Kick out the devil’s sin.. pick up pick up a good book now!”apologies to the Cat Stevens.

rmg1859 12/03/08 11:07PM

eet,

Sure enough, a conflation of ‘Jewish’ with ‘Israeli’: as if the only political ideology for all Jewish people, Left and Right, religious and non-religious, is and always will be Zionism. But this is so disingenuous, when you surely know that there have been a multitude of programs, ideologies, parties, stances, some Zionist, some not, and some extremely anti-Zionist and at the same time socialist, for example the Russian Jewish SD (the Bund) in the first half of the twentieth century. Ironically, they were the scapegoats used by Rightist to ‘show’ that Jewish people were all Communists.

Jewish people are human beings like anybody else, with Left and Right political leanings, with religious, linguistic, cultural, historical and all sorts of other allegiances. But their sufferings under the Nazis does not give them privilege over anybody else (except perhaps Germans - who are pretty thin on the ground in Palestine) so surely if they want to live in somebody else’s country, they don’t go about claiming it as their own. Some Jewish people may believe that the yare the chosen people and thatthis gives them some stamp of approval from their god, but nobody else has to believe it, or act on it. And that is not anti-Semitism. Not to mention the fact that a fair proportion of Palestinians are Semites. No, Israel has been a land-grab from start to finish, political rather than religious, and in the long run, it will not stand. Joe

David Grayling 13/03/08 8:45AM

Joe, I don’t think that you can reasonably make the claim that Israel has been or is motivated by politics rather than religion.

The religious fanaticism that drives the Jewish state and its people is profound. It blinds them, gives them a distorted view of who they are and what they are doing, allows them to carry out ugly atrocities and genocide and land-grabs then rationalize that they are just protecting themselves, carrying out god’s will, etc.

Religion, Joe, is responsible for much of the world’s suffering and conflict. Given that it’s a fantasy, one without any scientific foundation whatsoever, it’s surely an irony of gigantic proportions!

Cheers.

www.dangerouscreation.com

rmg1859 13/03/08 10:18AM

I’m not so sure, David, I get the idea that each is a pretext for the other, and that in the case of Israel, the two have fed off each other now for so long - over a hundred years - that they have set up a sort of fascist dynamic that drives the Zionist project forward, politics using religious pretexts and sections of the religious right using politics as a pretext, and both using the Holocaust as a pretext for exterminating Palestinians, or at least expelling them and taking their lands.

Meanwhile, those who exterminated Jewish people before and during (and after: viz. Poland) the War get off more or less scot-free, comfortable in the knowledge that the Jewish people are now too preoccupied, or far away, or in tiny numbers, to ever come back and demand their homes and property back in Belarus and Poland and Germany and Hungary, etc.

There is a section in Colin McInnes’ novel ‘To the Victor the Spoils’, his account of a British Army unit moving into Germany to free slave labour and assess the situation immediately after Liberation, where he describes farm-houses packed to the rafters with stolen furniture and bedding and precious goods which have been sent back from the Front by Wehrmacht soldiers. Did they ever return that ? Did they ever get punished for theft and use of slave labour ? How much of their stolen property actually belonged to exterminated Jewish people who could never return to claim it ?

Yeah, it’s probably easier to kick Palestinians around than squeeze anything out of ex-pro-Nazi Europeans.

By the way, that’s William (Sea Change) McInnes’ uncle. Joe

rosross 13/03/08 11:26AM

It’s a pity that there is so often a kneejerk reaction of ‘anti-semitism’ when legitimate and defendable criticisms of Israel are made. This serves no good purpose for either Palestinians or Israelis.
If one is to apply basic principles of justice and democracy then it is clear that Israel stands as one of the most brutal occupiers (up there with the Chinese in Tibet) and colonisers in modern history.
The fact that fears of ‘anti-semitism’ have prevented people from speaking out for decades means that Palestinians continue to live in misery as an occupied people and Israelies continue to live in misery as an occupying people.
Occupation is considered to be wrong in our modern world. Colonisation is considered to be wrong in our modern world. Israel continues to do both of these things breaking international law, human rights convention and principles of common decency.
Israel is an historically recent coloniser, no different to Australia, the US, Canada and New Zealand, and, like those nations, must be called to account.
Other historically recent colonisers have given full rights as citizens to their indigenous peoples and most have said sorry. Israel has done neither. Israel in fact refuses to admit that it is a coloniser and yet, without either giving full rights to all for one State, or, removing all settlements and returning to pre:67 borders …. which by the way are give Israel much more territory than its UN mandate …to allow the establishment of a viable Palestinian State, there cannot be peace.
We supported the East Timorese in their fight for freedom from occupation and colonisation and the Palestinians deserve the same. They also deserve an apology and compensation from Israel for all that they have suffered in 60 years of colonisation, occupation and continued colonisation.
The reality is that no-one can win a war of occupation in the modern world because the only way to win such wars is through genocide and it simply will not be allowed to happen. Israel may be doing all that it can to force Palestinians leave, but all that is being achieved is a higher and higher Palestinian birth rate and stronger and stronger Palestinian determination to remain in their land.

rmg1859 13/03/08 11:47AM

Spot on, Ros. Where have you been ? We need you ! Yes, how can there be a viable two-state solution which bans one lot of people from one state, i.e. the one so many of them were born in ? Ultimately, there can only be a one-state, secular entity, perhaps under international supervision, but with no group or religion with more rights than others.

Cheers, Joe

rosross 13/03/08 12:08PM

Joe,
I suspect given the ‘facts on the ground’ which Israel has worked for 60 years to achieve, as part of an official Government policy, that a One State solution is now the only solution.
For a viable Palestinian State Israel would have to return to pre: 67 borders and negotiate some sort of contiguous border for Palestine and maybe with some land swaps. Jerusalem would be shared.
The Israeli policy is to take and keep all of Palestine and to maintain a Jewish State. This, like Islamic States, is a racist concept and really has no place in the modern world. But, if Israel truly wants this then it has to give up its fantasy of holding on to all of Palestine and go back to the borders which most people accept these days, despite the fact that they are much larger than what was mandated by the UN. Not that this probably matters greatly since one could argue any UN mandate was morally wrong and probably illegal because the majority of people living in Palestine at the time opposed it. The UN mandate was akin to the European monarchs divvying up Africa as a colonial pie. They could get away with it at the time but it did not make it right or legal.
Personally I think Israel is incapable of acting reasonably …. there are so many irrational psychological and emotional complexities, which one can understand but which cannot be taken as justification for wht they do …. and that any solution must be imposed. But there are rational aspects which prevent resolution … America’s involvement and it’s ‘need’ for Israel to remain a Middle East nuclear armed base, and the problem of water. An independent Palestine means Israel would have less control over its water supplies ….probably more crucial than oil. And there’s the myth aspect, that Israelis like to believe Palestine was empty when they began to colonise it and there are no indigenous Palestinians. Accepting themselves as victimiser not victim would be a huge quantum leap for a culture and religion sourced in profound belief in their own victimhood. That’s why I think the ultimate solution will be imposed. And for the sake of both sides, the sooner the better.
I think a secular State, pick a new name if neither Israel or Palestine are acceptable, is the most sensible way to go but sense has not shown its head much in this conflict and is unlikely to start now. Racist States, whether based on relgion or race, are backward and ultimately doomed. Israel and what remains of Palestine are so small that their futures are dependent upon one another anyway.

Toss 13/03/08 9:46PM

In February 1930 Freud was asked, as a distinguished Jew, to contribute to a petition condemning Arab riots of 1929, in which over a hundred Jewish settlers were killed. This was his reply:

Letter to the Keren Hajessod (Dr. Chaim Koffler)

Vienna: 26 February 1930

Dear Sir,

I cannot do as you wish. I am unable to overcome my aversion to burdening the public with my name, and even the present critical time does not seem to me to warrant it. Whoever wants to influence the masses must give them something rousing and inflammatory and my sober judgement of Zionism does not permit this. I certainly sympathise with its goals, am proud of our University in Jerusalem and am delighted with our settlement’s prosperity. But, on the other hand, I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state, nor that the Christian and Islamic worlds would ever be prepared to have their holy places under Jewish care. It would have seemed more sensible to me to establish a Jewish homeland on a less historically-burdened land. But I know that such a rational viewpoint would never have gained the enthusiasm of the masses and the financial support of the wealthy. I concede with sorrow that the baseless fanaticism of our people is in part to be blamed for the awakening of Arab distrust. I can raise no sympathy at all for the misdirected piety which transforms a piece of a Herodian wall into a national relic, thereby offending the feelings of the natives.

Now judge for yourself whether I, with such a critical point of view, am the right person to come forward as the solace of a people deluded by unjustified hope.

Your obediant servant,

Freud

http://www.freud.org.uk/arab-israeli.html

rosross 14/03/08 9:29AM

Toss,
there were many Jews who were opposed to the ‘recreate Israel in Palestine’ project and for a variety of reasons including the fact that the land actually belonged to others. Some felt that founding a State through religious belief was wrong, that the Jews, as a religion had no business establishing themselves as a nation. Some ultra orthodox Jews still believe this. Others that a Jewish State as a concept was flawed. Freud was not alone in his beliefs and neither, sadly was he alone in having them ignored.

Toss 14/03/08 9:46PM

I was a supporter of Israel long ago. Until I learned the truth. Perhaps people like Eet could broaden his education here http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html for example.

There is no moral explanation for the support of the ‘continuing’ crimes of Israel. Its not like an issue that occured decades ago. It is a continuing land grab and displacement this very day. I’m ashamed and tired of being a sycophantic Australian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA&NR=1

rmg1859 14/03/08 11:04PM

So a two-state solution is never going to work and, in the current conditions, a single secular state will be blocked by the US, protecting the Zionist project. So no democracy for the Plaestinians, not in the lands of their birth at least.

But the US is in dire economic straits: even Carlyle, the investment firm of the Bushes and Wolfowitz and so many other neo-cons, is in financial trouble. The housing crisis has begun rather than ended. The US deficit is at un-dreamt-of levels, trillions upon trillions of dollars. So the US dollar is losing value very fast, forcing big investors in the US Fed Reserve either to demand premiums or pull their money out, China in particular. The US is fighting two exhausting wars already, and the fruit-cakes want to start another one with Iran. The idiot US rural economy has switched to a large extent to idiotic biofuels, so food prices are skyrocketing. Petrol prices are skyrocketing: they will soon be almost half of what we pay here. God help whoever is elected as President later this year, they have a dog’s breakfast of impossible problems.

So will the US be in a strong enough position to keep protecting Israel in a year or two ? Or will we hear more dove-like talk, about two democracies, about some limited form of the right of return for Palestinians ? What will the Russians in Israel do, stay or run ?

Masybe that’s the real reason why Israel and the US must launch a war of aggression against Iran in the next few months, because if they don’t break Iran, they will be in a very weak position in a short time, financially and militarily. But if they can’t control the situations in Afghanistan and Iraq, then what chance Iran ?

So I’m still hoping that the US will land troops on the Iranian coast, near the Pakistani border, around about the beginning of summer, late May or June, then start the march across 50-degree deserts and swamps to Teheran. That terrain beat Alexander 2300 years ago, and similar terrain in Afghanistan broke the British under Elphinstone in the 1840s. But it will be fun to watch the US try it, although it is going to be very tragic for the Iranians as well.

And once the US has been beaten, and with a devastated economy, maybe then we can start to talk about a one-state solution, perhaps under international supervision. Joe

dazza 15/03/08 1:27PM

Joe, I could not agree with you more, and Ros, and some others.
Before there can be any settlement (a just one) in Palestine,(or whatever one-state came to fruition …I do not recognise Israel) the USA and the insane and thoughtless backing of the Zionist cause there must cease, and Presidents of whatever colour, gender or type must obtain the strength to ignore the quite incredibly strong Jewish Lobby and back Justice.
However, it is quite possible that the USA will soon have to declare State Bankruptcy, as they, under Bush, have spent their birthright and a lot more, on unjust and insane martial Wars against an idea.
What happens then will be anyone’s guess, but without their main protector, the Israelis may have to swallow some very bitter medicine if they wish to continue existence as a part of a Sovereign State.
But an awful lot more innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die first, while Bush remains in office, and/or if Billary gets to replace him! Dazza.

rmg1859 15/03/08 1:54PM

Thanks, Dazza, yeah, once the US is out of the picture, too preoccupied with its own home disasters, the Zionists will have to give way to what may by then be a majority of Jewish people who are reconciled to sharing a secular state with Palestinians, across what is now ‘Israel’, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. An essential condition would have to be the right of Palestinians to return and claim their own property. If this means that Jewish people have to move out, out of what is not really their property, then so be it - in turn, the right of Jewish people from Europe to return and reclaim property: so straight away, we have an international dimension - the right of Jewish people to return to Europe and take back what is really THEIR property, in Poland, Hungary, Belarus, the Ukraine, the Baltic countries.

So, quite a hornets’ nest. Joe

rosross 15/03/08 4:08PM

There seems to be increasing recognition in the world that Israel must be called to account. Recognising that Israel is a coloniser and must be treated as such is an important step.
Sanctions and boycotts brought South Africa’s infamous injustices to an end and they can do the same with Israel.
As long as people refuse to judge this conflict in the context of colonisation, brutal occupation and yet more colonisation, it will never be resolved. I think there are changes afoot and if we are prepared to support the East Timorese then we must also support the Palestinians.
I am heartened also to see the Tibetans calling strongly for freedom from Chinese occupation and colonisation. No doubt they have done so many times but perhaps not as strongly. No doubt many will die, but, in this Olympic year, they have an opportunity to get world interest like never before.
Both Tibet and Palestine are blots on the conscience of the world and have been for the same amount of time.

rmg1859 15/03/08 5:05PM

Hi Ros,

Yes, Tibet, Turkestan, Palestine, Kurdistan, Kosova - they all should have as much right to determine their own affairs as Ireland, India, South Africa, Cuba, East Timor: colonialism is an evil, no matter who practises it. Colonialist claims to age-old control are invalidated if the people in a captive territory are allowed to vote and if they vote for self-determination.

Do the people of territory X want to remain part of empire Y ? Then put it to a vote and let the world see. Let the Tibetans and Turkestanis and Kurds vote on power they wis hto be governed, by themselves or by colonial authorities ? In Kosova, the people voted 90 % for self-determination and independence. In East Timor, I think it was 78 %. Pretty convincing to me. But everybody should have that right, to determine their own destiny, independent or under some other tutelage. The Irish voted for home rule, and eventually independence. The people of Slovakia voted to break away from the Czech Republic - I think it was a stupid decision, but there you go, it was their right. The various populations of Yugoslavia voted likewise, and it was their right.

I have no idea how such a vote might go in the Basque or Catalan regions of Spain - perhaps their participation in majority numbers in the recent elections shows that they are happy enough to remain as part of Spain. But, like anyone else, they should have the right to choose.

In the case of Isael, democracy does not grant the right to expel one section of the population, THEN talk about elections. That is Apartheid, ethnic cleansing, a declaration of uber- and untermensch. That is fascism. That is shameful, for any Jewish person to support such a policy. Joe

rmg1859 15/03/08 6:48PM

Speaking of Tibet and Turkestan, deaths have occurred during protests in Tibet and Gansu: the tanks are in the streets and the Chinese say ten killed - yeah, right. Gansu (like Qinghai) has a high proportion of Hui (Muslim) and Tibetans, or Buddhists allied or related to Tibetans.

What might the Chinese do to disinform the world and/or destroy any self-determination movements ? Obviously, they might try to turn each group against the others (exploiting ethnic and religious differences), and then report how their valiant troops are restoring order. Just as they are reporting how their valiant police have foiled many devious plots by Turkestanis to spoil the Olympics.

But the funny thing about the quest for freedom, it doesn’t die and it is hard to stamp out. People don’t stop. So it is with the Palestinians. If only colonial authorities could see the future, they would pack it in right now, but ….

rosross 16/03/08 12:28PM

rmg,
If there is any constant it is the fact that human beings seem to be slow learners and too many of those in power hold to the ‘might is right’ view. Wars of occupation simply cannot be won in the modern world because while the world stands for many atrocities and injustices, it doesn’t stand for too much genocide and the only way to win a war of occupation is to kill those you occupy.
So ultimately the Israelis will lose, the Americans will lose, the Chinese will lose, the Indonesians will lose in West Papua, the Russians in Chechnya and any other place where the indigenous peoples believe in their right to freedom.
Sadly, it is all a matter of how long it will take and how many must die. Governments, particularly tyrannical governments and these days I think the US is one of those…. or is it that occupiers become tyrants, probably? like Israel, China, Russia, Indonesia et al, are occupying and colonising for a whole variety of reasons beyond mere land, but they all have to do with power. Whether it is water, oil, minerals, land for increasing population or tactical advantage for the military, as always, the lives and welfare of human beings have always been sacrificed. The only thing which stops tyranny is when people rise up in enough numbers to punish the tyrants.
Sanctions and boycotts organised at the people level are the most powerful weapon we have in the face of Government disinterest or deception.

rmg1859 16/03/08 3:45PM

Hi Ros,

Do occupiers become tyrants or the other way around ? G. B. Shaw wrote that a policy of robbing Peter to pay Paul usually has the full and enthusiastic support of Paul, so maybe the former.

In Tibet, the people will probably keep protesting, and the bravest nay perhaps even take up armed revolution (which used to get guaranteed Left-wing support, but we live in strange times) but as someone pointed out to me, there are six million Tibetans and 1,500 million Chinese. The Chinese Army outnumbers adult Tibetans.

So maybe it may come down to sanctions and boycotts in countries like Australia, so we need to support organisations and campaigns for those sorts of actions - as you say - to try to persuade governments to oppose tyranny and support self-determination. What chance do you think we might have with our present government ?

Cheers, Joe

angee76 19/03/08 1:31PM

Are you serious Revilo?

To be a Jew all you need is a Jewish mother.

Not all Jews are Zionists.

And not all Jews who aren’t Zionists apologise for Israel’s existence.

Some of us (Jews, not Zionists) want Israel to exist, but not at the expense of the human rights of ANYONE else.

That includes Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Druse, Palestinians, Women, Gay people, people who chose not to be religious, people who marry into different religions and so on.

It is not treasonous of a Jew to want to “treat her neighbour as herself” or to care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Unfortunately it’s not helpful to a discussion on the middle east to assume all Jews are anything or believe any one truth.

Just like any other people we range in political opinion and that doesn’t make us better or worse Jews - just different.

The sooner that our community (and others) recognise and accept this variety of opinion the better we will be armed to defend ourselves against real (not imagined) anti-semitism.

rmg1859 24/03/08 7:49PM

Shot-gun Cheney has just declared his full support for a two-state solution. Now, if it was a sunny day, and Cheney said it was a suny day, I would look twice to make sure. But to me, his support for two states damns it outright: I’m more than ever in support of a single, secular, democratic state, with freedom of all citizens to live anywhere, and for Palestinians to return and claim their rightful property, just as Jewish people should be able to return to anywhere in Europe and, with military backing if necessary, reclaim their rightful property.

Meanwhile, the Kurds, who number nearly ten times as many as Palestinians, should also have the right to autonomy, secession, or confederate status, as they choose, as should the people of Tibet or Turkestan. Why shouldn’t all people of the world be entitled to the rights of democracy ? Joe

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